D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Seen a tank like this before?

[Turtlebuster]

[MENTION=97602]Sekhmet[/MENTION]: my current party has armor, dex, dodge and insight bonuses to ac. I'm not even sure about the last. I'm betting the warblade and the rogue both have a +2-3 ring of prot, but even if it's +3 they can still gain an effective ac + capping at +12. Tank will probably always have a slightly higher ac but enemies by default understand that they don't receieve a -4 penalty to attacks versus anyone BUT the tank (when pcs are standing appropriately). This makes intelligent opponents played logically, more likely to hit the tank. There are obvious reasons that the build won't always offer full benefits, but as an ac battery, people should always have the option of charging up, at the very least. Plus, a number of bonuses here even effect ranged touch attacks which is an added benefit when dealing with LA casters who rely on touch attacks to hit anything.
[MENTION=97812]emoplato[/MENTION]: one way to improve these benefits would be to increase reach. a reach weapon wouldn't help but being large would be extremely useful. Increasing the amount of tiles my allies can use whil gaining benefits is one way; threatening more enemies for iron guard's glare is another. But I'm going to look through your suggestions and see if I can come up with a little more here. The test dummy I rolled was indeed stacking some charisma and that weapon enchantment is a great idea.

I may have to scrap this build and start again. Because the campaign is already difficult and we have 2/4 pcs that aren't designed to be exceptional combatants, I feel the need to do too many things here. Healing alone won't pull this off - so far control has managed us, but with a lack of ac on my allies' parts it has been risky. Damage is the one thing I think I CAN skimp on.

 

[emoplato]

@emoplato : one way to improve these benefits would be to increase reach. a reach weapon wouldn't help but being large would be extremely useful. Increasing the amount of tiles my allies can use whil gaining benefits is one way; threatening more enemies for iron guard's glare is another. But I'm going to look through your suggestions and see if I can come up with a little more here. The test dummy I rolled was indeed stacking some charisma and that weapon enchantment is a great idea.

Actually it really doesn't, like Iron Heart Aura it says adjacent allies. That means allies that just in the squares surrounding you. I know you know this, but even if you are large those squares go from 9 to 12 out of the hundreds that usually exist in a battlefield. Two feats for a +3 shield bonus in 12 squares that doesn't stack just isn't worth it.

 

[Sekhmet]

[MENTION=6696221]Turtlebuster[/MENTION] The enemy who plays intelligently will not consider "I get a -4 to hit these people", he will consider "I need a 30 to hit this guy and a 20 to hit these guys", "This guy doesn't deal any damage and has a lot of hit points, and these guys deal damage and have fewer hit points", or "this guy is staying relatively still (so his allies can get buffs), and these guys behind him are controlling/debuffing me".

 

[Turtlebuster]

^
Sure, to gain +3 shield bonus to ac they have to be in one of 12 adjacent tiles. But lets say that they aren't and that a large sized tank like this is threatening a knot of enemies around him. If the rogue/ninja is flanking one of those enemies he would at the very least gain a +4 sacred bonus to ac from the domain feat, +3 deflection from Shield of Faith and all enemies threatened by the tank would take a -4 on attacks towards him. +11 effective ac for the rogue is fairly solid and that is basicallt worse case. The rogue is a tumble sneak attacker so if he didn't want to full round he can end every other turn next to the tank for the additional 3 shield bonus, 1 dodge from white raven defense. Now the deflection bonus he may have from his own ring right now, but even still thats one item that doesn't need to be focused for future gp expenditures. Saving a whole party from buying +whatever rings could translate to some unforseen bonuses. Probably not, but it DOES scale by cl, the domain feat bonus scales by ecl so those 2 are worth it purely for never having to trade them up or out.

 

[Turtlebuster]

@Turtlebuster The enemy who plays intelligently will not consider "I get a -4 to hit these people", he will consider "I need a 30 to hit this guy and a 20 to hit these guys", "This guy doesn't deal any damage and has a lot of hit points, and these guys deal damage and have fewer hit points", or "this guy is staying relatively still (so his allies can get buffs), and these guys behind him are controlling/debuffing me".

I hope not, that goes against our gamining ethics. No character in our games is rolling dice and mentally adding numbers to hit creatures. Sure, a character wearing the thickest armor with the thickest shield might not be a suitable target when there is a skinny half elf nearby, but you can't say from a historical standpoint that the guy well made armor isn't less threatening than the guy in a tunic. Furthermore, damage and HP are hugely illogical so comparing the 25 damage from a crusader manuever with 50 damage from a suddenstrike/sneak attack isn't necissarily something that doesn't come up as "both roughly as bad as the other" to someone being hit from all directions.
But most of all I want to point out that the purpose of THIS tank isn't to be tanky so much as to tank his allies. If I wanted pure ac I wouldn't have bothered posting for advice at all. I would have just stacked templates, prcs and/or spells and had an easy 50 without bending a rule. THIS tank can grant up to 15 ac to his allies so when the worst case happens and the enemies decide to not hit the hulking fighter who is harrying their every move with supernatural charisma (Iron Guard's Glare), the PCs that they do it might be outside of a lot of normal rolls.
The warblade has a 22ish ac depending on his actions. He'd have roughly a 35 if he is using a +3 ring of prot which I'm not sure he is. That is technically higher than the Tank's AC (before these shared buffs). In the end an intelligent enemy might eventually realize that if his attacks are largely innefective, the menacing Tank is mostly the cause and is ironically the best target from the start.

This of course is an expectation I have based on the last 2 real encounters. There is plenty of magic to deal with my ac but I think this build would carry us though what I've seen so far... I'll worry about what comes after if we can make it there.

 

[kitcik]

I don''t want a non-threatening ally who boosts my AC.

I want a casting ally who boosts my DPA. An inspire-courage bard to me is a much better aliy than a tank.

That said, if you really want to tank / boost party defense at this level, you should do more than just boost AC. Imagine if you were a cleric and could custom-buff so everyone gets what they want, have a higher AC for yourself and be a significant threat at the same time. Now try to build a martial character that at least provides some of that utility. You might start by getting White Raven Tactics. Everyone loves that.

 

[emoplato]

I hope not, that goes against our gamining ethics. No character in our games is rolling dice and mentally adding numbers to hit creatures. Sure, a character wearing the thickest armor with the thickest shield might not be a suitable target when there is a skinny half elf nearby, but you can't say from a historical standpoint that the guy well made armor isn't less threatening than the guy in a tunic. Furthermore, damage and HP are hugely illogical so comparing the 25 damage from a crusader manuever with 50 damage from a suddenstrike/sneak attack isn't necissarily something that doesn't come up as "both roughly as bad as the other" to someone being hit from all directions.
But most of all I want to point out that the purpose of THIS tank isn't to be tanky so much as to tank his allies. If I wanted pure ac I wouldn't have bothered posting for advice at all. I would have just stacked templates, prcs and/or spells and had an easy 50 without bending a rule. THIS tank can grant up to 15 ac to his allies so when the worst case happens and the enemies decide to not hit the hulking fighter who is harrying their every move with supernatural charisma (Iron Guard's Glare), the PCs that they do it might be outside of a lot of normal rolls.
The warblade has a 22ish ac depending on his actions. He'd have roughly a 35 if he is using a +3 ring of prot which I'm not sure he is. That is technically higher than the Tank's AC (before these shared buffs). In the end an intelligent enemy might eventually realize that if his attacks are largely innefective, the menacing Tank is mostly the cause and is ironically the best target from the start.

This of course is an expectation I have based on the last 2 real encounters. There is plenty of magic to deal with my ac but I think this build would carry us though what I've seen so far... I'll worry about what comes after if we can make it there.

The point is that few battle scenarios are actually going to involve your team being right next to you. Flanking, a common tactic for Mr. rogue requires him to be on the other side of the enemy therefore out of your area of benefit of the shieldmates. Currently you are a slow moving character without many other ways to get around the field. You also don't force enemies to deal with you as you are still the statue with the highest AC, little damage, and movement. Why should they deal with you when all they might get is a little pin prick when they run by ubercharging your caster? People in your position look into lockdown builds in which there tactic is to waste the actions of the enemy that comes into your fold. With some of the suggestions I made as well as others in this blog you can give actions and attack bonuses to your brute Warblade to Power attack a down enemy to oblivion.

 

[Sekhmet]

[MENTION=6696221]Turtlebuster[/MENTION] Even if everyone in your group ends up having a higher AC than you do, any smart enemy is going to question whether it is worth attacking you at all, as you aren't contributing anything else to the field.
"Is it worth taking a few rounds to take out the shieldmate (who deals little damage and has no utility) instead of charging passed him and getting at the caster/rogue/whathaveyou?"

In any game that has a "tank" mechanic, you'll notice that it is very, very rarely to the advantage of the enemy to attack the tank at all. This is why MMOs brought about the "threat" or "aggro" mechanic - a metagame idea to actually force the enemy to do what you want.

 

[Jacob Marley]

@Turtlebuster Even if everyone in your group ends up having a higher AC than you do, any smart enemy is going to question whether it is worth attacking you at all, as you aren't contributing anything else to the field.
"Is it worth taking a few rounds to take out the shieldmate (who deals little damage and has no utility) instead of charging passed him and getting at the caster/rogue/whathaveyou?"

Except, from the sound of it, he isn't playing against "any smart enemy." He is playing with a very specific DM with very specific tendencies. What is important here is not how Sekhmet or Jacob Marley acts/reacts as a DM, but instead how his DM acts/reacts.

 

[kitcik]

Except, from the sound of it, he isn't playing against "any smart enemy." He is playing with a very specific DM with very specific tendencies. What is important here is not how Sekhmet or Jacob Marley acts/reacts as a DM, but instead how his DM acts/reacts.

He's fighting dragons and casters. AC might as well be air conditioning.