3.5 Spell changes in Dragon

[MerricB]

This is only my second post on this board and already I'm complaining.

It's a good place for it. You get lots of feedback.

Some is even valuable.

Personally, I applaud the changes to harm, haste and hold person. Harm is still a powerful spell - Will saves are not easy for high level fighters, and the loss of 90 to 150 hit points still hurts. It's not like clerics are underpowered in melee, curative and enhancement spells...

Haste was just Too Good. I do hope that the rumours are true and it affects multiple allies - without that it may be too weak. Extra speed and an extra attack is good for rogues and fighters, though.

Hold Person - well, it was "save or die" for the most part, which isn't good. Especially not for a 2nd level spell. Consider the standard Fighter (Wis10, Will+1) vs. the standard Cleric (Wis 15, Spell Focus Enchantment, DC 16), and you have a 70% success rate with the spell. Hmm. No fun at all if your PC gets held, and it was quite likely that if the cleric surprised you, two of your PCs would be down. Not good in a standard party of four.

Cheers!

 

[ForceUser]

Hold person is an extremely powerful 2nd-level spell. Once you lay that one someone and they fail their save, they are done for the rest of that encounter. This is why I always keep a few remove paralysis scrolls handy on my cleric. I am sure a save every round is better for the game as a whole, but for the record, this could devalue remove paralysis.

Still, I have seen hold person turn the tide of some very tough mid-level battles. On three separate occasions in two different campaigns I watched the Main Villain in the Big Fight(tm) get held, then coup-de-graced, turning what were intended to be challenging encounters into mere exercises in mopping up thugs.

 

[hong]

That's an elegant solution, but how would you deal with virtual insta-kill spells (like Plane Shift, Imprisonment or Polymorph: Snail)?

Aside from some major nerfing I can't think of a good alternative.

I banned polymorph other and all 9th level spells from my campaign. Too much trouble to make them balanced.

 

[Artimoff]

I banned polymorph other and all 9th level spells from my campaign. Too much trouble to make them balanced.

So Hong, rather than use your brain and figure out a challenging encounter you ban 9th level spells? Remind me never to play with you as the DM.

 

[hong]

So Hong, rather than use your brain and figure out a challenging encounter you ban 9th level spells? Remind me never to play with you as the DM.

Geez d00d, who d'you think you are, a 3etard or something?

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Elder-

We havent seen what the new quicken will look like. We also havent seen if the way AC works is different (although we know stacking is different). Perhaps shield is no longer range "personal". As for point #1, it will still allow fighters to get in range for a full attack (increases speed 30 ft), and on that full attack it will grant an extra swing.

Rather than having a high level mage "unload" an arsenal of empowered spells, a high level mage will have to work with the party to use tactics to overcome high level CRs. Illusory Walls and such may become more popular because its not just a "save or die" spell than can be easily resisted, and its not just straight damage (wizards+sorc damage output at high levels will be reduced).

I think a 9th level universal spell that gives +4 AC and allows you to cast 2 spells per round would be a cool spell.

Technik

Quicken: they've said they haven't reworked metamagic becuase of time reasons.

Mage have to work with party: I've seent his many times before and seriously what kind of world do your pcs roam in. Mages are the most party dependent class in the game if your mages are off on their won doing there own thing they should be very dead.

My opinion on haste was that it was a little too good. I do think its removal will alter the balance a lot more than they realised. If they didn't have the time to playtest metamagic changes I'm kind of worried about the playtesting of their other changes. Did they realy work out all the implications of their drasitc change to haste? Some how I doubt it.

 

[KDLadage]

So Hong, rather than use your brain and figure out a challenging encounter you ban 9th level spells? Remind me never to play with you as the DM.

Uncalled for. Completely uncalled for.

 

[Knight Otu]

Quicken: they've said they haven't reworked metamagic becuase of time reasons.

They haven't changed the metamagic system, but that does not mean that a few of the feats have been tweaked (though I have the feeling that the changes to Quicken Spell are minor, at best).

 

[MerakSpielman]

I think that the Haste changes are the worst of the bunch. Haste was such a feature of mid to high level 3e that changing it changes the way everything works.

The fact that Haste was so much of a must-cast spell is precicely the reason it needed to be changed. If ONE spell (out of hundreds) is THAT important to game balance, something is terribly wrong.

Two high level parties, one of which has access to haste and one of which has access to a different spell of the same level SHOULD be closely matched. As it is, the party with Haste will slaughter the other.

Once a spell (or feat) becomes a must-have for a high-level character build, it should be clear that it is unbalanced.

 

[WizarDru]

I banned polymorph other and all 9th level spells from my campaign. Too much trouble to make them balanced.

Hmmm. hong, do your casters get any benefits in return for this? I guess this would make metamagic feats more attractive in your game, then, if you've got those 9th level slots with no 9th level spells to put in them.

I mean, geez, d00d.