3.5 Spell changes in Dragon

[Artimoff]

One of the ideas that I think should have been brought over from older editions is that a dieity can tell the cleric that he can't memorize certan spells if they go against the gods dogma. Such as a god of freedom not granting a cleric hold person or a god of mercy and healing not allowing harm, or a death god giving their clerics heal. It's the same type of thing as good clerics not being able to create undead. Remember that the gods are strange and petty and work in mysterious ways (except maybe for a god of logic)

Secondly it doesn't change the fight if you take harm into acount to the ECL. Harm is just another chalenge they need to overcome. Remember the "monster only needs to be balanced for one fight, the PCs need top be balanced to last a campain

If all people interpeted books the same way their would be only one religion.

 

[A'koss]

Originally posted by Apok:

Well, the main reason I don't like to get into discussions about those things is because you start leaving the realm of minor tweaks and changes and begin journeying into the vast ocean of total system redesign. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I'd like to get my mileage out of the current system before I worry about what's on the horizon.

Fair enough. However there is another school of thought that suggests if you hash out the new ideas now, you'll have all the kinks worked out by the time 4e does roll 'round...

Give Third Edition a chance to mature and grow and in about ten or so years we can look around and see where we are, where we've been and where we are going.

Ten years?

Heh, in this day and age I give it 5, tops.


Cheers,

A'koss.

 

[Wormwood]

That's pretty much my problem with _all_ the save-or-die spells, in fact. The suggested epic-level mod (20d6 + 1d6/level damage, instead of instant death) is one solution I've seen that could also be applied at lower levels.

That's an elegant solution, but how would you deal with virtual insta-kill spells (like Plane Shift, Imprisonment or Polymorph: Snail)?

Aside from some major nerfing I can't think of a good alternative.

 

[A'koss]

Originally posted by Wormwood:

That's an elegant solution, but how would you deal with virtual insta-kill spells (like Plane Shift, Imprisonment or Polymorph: Snail)?

Just off the top of my head you could apply CR (or HD) limitations, gradated effects (like Holy Word) or simply rework them so that they no longer have instakill capabilities.

Plane Shift can be fixed easily - simply rule it cannot affect unwilling creatures. You could allow Baneful Polymorph a save every round to reverse the effects (as per the new Hold spell), rule that you simply cannot transform a creature into something that cannot surive in the current environment or rule that the spell only affects creatures of a CR up to your Caster Level -4, etc. Imprisonment I have far less a problem with as it's just battlefield removal, not death.


Cheers,

A'koss.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I think that the Haste changes are the worst of the bunch. Haste was such a feature of mid to high level 3e that changing it changes the way everything works.

For instance, Haste was:

-A balancing factor that allowed melee characters to get full attacks almost as often as ranged fighters. (Thus it was a key component in the balance of combat weapons, feats, prestige classes, and the rules for their stacking as well as some buff spells like GMW and Keen Edge)

-The key component of many defensive character builds that enabled characters to get armor classes that melee focussed foes had to roll above a 12 to hit on their primary attacks. (In other words, it made armor class worthwhile; dropping three points off the top of many armor classes will at least double the amount of damage they take in an average round making all of the other choices that increase armor class significantly less valid. (Armor class grants an exponential advantage--the higher your AC is, the more difference a small improvement makes. For example, the difference between AC 2 and AC 10 is insignificant after level 3 or so but the difference between AC 20 and AC 22 is quite significant at level one and level 2).

-THE spell that made Quicken a worthwhile feat for PC wizards. (Shield and Magic Missile were also worthwhile to quicken--but not as much so as Haste). Under the new rules, quicken is still highly advantageous for NPCs--since they usually spend all their spells in one encounter, using all their 5th level spells for a pair of double empowered magic missiles and a pair of quickened magic missiles enabling a 10th level evoker to fire them all off in two rounds is an efficient use of spells. Its not as if he was likely to live much longer anyway. PC wizards, OTOH, need to conserve their spell slots. Consequently the double empowered magic missile or empowered fireball (2x magic missile damage or so; 1 5th level slot) is much more advantageous than magic missile or fireball and quickened magic missile. (More or less the same damage but one 5th level and one 1st or 3rd level slot). Contrary to what one of the WotC flaks said and many people have parroted, eliminating the most advantageous spells to quicken will not make quicken spell more attractive to PCs. What the change to Haste will do is make it so that mid to high level NPCs regularly cast 2 spells per round but mid to high level PCs very rarely do so.

As far as Haste is concerned, I don't really mind the changes. You can still cast multiple spells in a round, it's just not as easy. My only complaint is that I think they should reduce the effective level modifier of Quicken spell by at least one to make it more attractive to mid-level casters. As it stands now, the only compelling reason to get Quicken Spell is to qualify for the Automatic Quicken Spell epic feat, and you can't even touch that one until 27th level.

 

[Technik4]

Elder-

We havent seen what the new quicken will look like. We also havent seen if the way AC works is different (although we know stacking is different). Perhaps shield is no longer range "personal". As for point #1, it will still allow fighters to get in range for a full attack (increases speed 30 ft), and on that full attack it will grant an extra swing.

Rather than having a high level mage "unload" an arsenal of empowered spells, a high level mage will have to work with the party to use tactics to overcome high level CRs. Illusory Walls and such may become more popular because its not just a "save or die" spell than can be easily resisted, and its not just straight damage (wizards+sorc damage output at high levels will be reduced).

I think a 9th level universal spell that gives +4 AC and allows you to cast 2 spells per round would be a cool spell.

Technik

 

[Apok]

-A balancing factor that allowed melee characters to get full attacks almost as often as ranged fighters. (Thus it was a key component in the balance of combat weapons, feats, prestige classes, and the rules for their stacking as well as some buff spells like GMW and Keen Edge)

Since they are also making some changes to the way ranged attacks work, I don't think this is going to be a huge loss. Okay, so now melee fighter's can't do a move and get their full compliment of attacks. Fine by me, as it makes being in a defensive position all the more advantageous against frontliners.

-The key component of many defensive character builds that enabled characters to get armor classes that melee focussed foes had to roll above a 12 to hit on their primary attacks. (In other words, it made armor class worthwhile; dropping three points off the top of many armor classes will at least double the amount of damage they take in an average round making all of the other choices that increase armor class significantly less valid. (Armor class grants an exponential advantage--the higher your AC is, the more difference a small improvement makes. For example, the difference between AC 2 and AC 10 is insignificant after level 3 or so but the difference between AC 20 and AC 22 is quite significant at level one and level 2).

Haste still grants an AC bonus, just not as good as before. A +4 bonus to AC that stacked with everything was a bit much for a 3rd level spell which also gave an extra partial action. There are still plenty of ways to increase one's AC. The +4 from the old haste was just icing on the cake for most people.

-THE spell that made Quicken a worthwhile feat for PC wizards. (Shield and Magic Missile were also worthwhile to quicken--but not as much so as Haste). Under the new rules, quicken is still highly advantageous for NPCs--since they usually spend all their spells in one encounter, using all their 5th level spells for a pair of double empowered magic missiles and a pair of quickened magic missiles enabling a 10th level evoker to fire them all off in two rounds is an efficient use of spells. Its not as if he was likely to live much longer anyway. PC wizards, OTOH, need to conserve their spell slots. Consequently the double empowered magic missile or empowered fireball (2x magic missile damage or so; 1 5th level slot) is much more advantageous than magic missile or fireball and quickened magic missile. (More or less the same damage but one 5th level and one 1st or 3rd level slot). Contrary to what one of the WotC flaks said and many people have parroted, eliminating the most advantageous spells to quicken will not make quicken spell more attractive to PCs. What the change to Haste will do is make it so that mid to high level NPCs regularly cast 2 spells per round but mid to high level PCs very rarely do so.

Apparently WotC believed the contrary, as they felt that the presence of Haste granting an extra spell per round made Quicken Spell obsolete. Or, if nothing else, something to let you cast Haste as a free action.

Of course, I still believe that the level modifier of Quicken Spell should be reduced to compensate.

 

[John Crichton]

My thoughts have been talked to death here.

 

[Renaissance Man]

Artimoff, out of curiousity, do you subscribe to Dragon, or did you pick up issue 307 from the newstands? I ask because I too am a resident of Southern Maine, and my copy has yet to arrive in the mail.

 

[Artimoff]

Artimoff, out of curiousity, do you subscribe to Dragon, or did you pick up issue 307 from the newstands? I ask because I too am a resident of Southern Maine, and my copy has yet to arrive in the mail.

Both. I had subscribed for years but my subscription ran out with 305. I had to pick the last two off the stands (Borders in So Portland). My sub should restart with 308.