D&D 3.x 3.5 Spells - Far Weaker?

[billd91]

Ditto. Seems most of the changes were good from the combat standpoint, but other situations may not have been considered. Seems almost video-gamish (not rehashing, just an observation).

Quoted for truth. I think most 3.0 tables would recognize that Harm was unbalanced (even though it worked mostly like earlier editions... personally, I tend to blame the concept of touch armor class more than anything else, in earlier editions you had to hit the full AC), Haste was unbalanced, and the Buff spells were too good with 1 hour/level durations and a randomized bonus susceptible to Empower and Maximize. And there were several spells that became abusive because the bonus given wasn't named appropriately, if at all, leading to stacking things that ought not to have been stacked.

That said, too many spells are now balanced with only combat in mind. Want to use Eagle's Splendor for your audience with the Duke to help you make a good impression? Not unless you speak so fast as to be rude. Fixing the bonus at 4 is fine, but they could have at least split the difference with the duration by making it 10 min/level. Cutting both was too much.

And I've said it before, invisibility has uses beyond combat. Or rather, it did. Now it doesn't. I don't buy the argument that scouting is what rogues are for. Sometimes you need more than one scout, sometimes the rogue is unavailable, sometimes nobody wants to play a rogue... and they shouldn't have to. The brilliant thing about magic was that it could help other PCs fill those niches from time to time (if the wizard was well prepared).

I don't think it 'ruined' the game. Too many other decent changes came with 3.5 (mainly the bard and ranger), but there also seemed to be too much feature creep, or too much fiddling with stuff that wasn't really broken in the first place. So we house rule a lot of spell durations from 1 minute/level up to 10 min/level.

I assume Sleep was also nerfed because of the Empower/Maximize combination. But considering it has a HD cap as to what could be affected, I don't see the point, really. By the time you modify the spell with those feats, you're a high enough level that the weak creatures affected aren't that big a deal anymore. Another case of too much fiddling, if you ask me.

 

[Li Shenron]

I also think the 3.5 mentallity is a less reliance on magic, more reliance on your own abilities.

I consider spells part of the character's own abilities... In 3.0 the long duration of buffs meant less reliance on stat-boosting magic items. In 3.5 a Fighter is not going to rely on his Str alone, but is more motivated to buy Str-boosting items.

If they wanted to really decrease the effect of magic on stats, they should have also made Gloves of Dex, Periapts of Wisdom etc. much more expensive. I'd have accepted that choice any time...

 

[Vladamere]

OK, that's it, I've gotta say it.
EDITED by Henry to complete Plane Sailing's earlier edit

Thanks, Freud.
I diden't mean to upset you,
I simply do not agree with your point of view.

 

[Bryan898]

Have you tried out playing with the 3.5 changes to spells yet or have you just looked at them?

I also didn't like some of the changes at first, both as a DM and player, but have found they balance the game well.

For example: We immensely enjoyed the 3.0 haste, not just spellcasters but everyone. Fighters could move their speed then make a full attack, Paladins could lay on hands in the front line and still attack, fighter/mages could slash their enemy to ribbons with a sword then barbecue them with a fireball, clerics could cast healing spells and still get to do something, etc.

For awhile we kept haste 3.0 just because we liked it that way. Eventually though we buckled and switched to 3.5 haste, and you know what? The game was still D&D and it was still fun. Try it out, I bet you still like the game just fine.

 

[Pielorinho]

One irritating change, and our nifty houserule: the statboost spells.

We loved the hour-per-level spells, but we understood that they were too powerful, given that they were pretty much the only second-level spells that anyone prepared (wizards would take invisibility, and druids would take barkskin, but the rest were statboosts). But once they became one minute/level, that got rid of some cool ideas: what about the wizard, for example, who liked to boost his intelligence for a day of creating alchemical items?

So we made a houserule. You may prepare the spell to last either an hour/level, or a minute/level. If you prepare it to last an hour/level, however, it lasts only until an emergency occurs: as soon as you roll a saving throw or an initiative check, the spell finishes its duration in rounds, not hours.

Daniel

 

[Scion]

as soon as you roll a saving throw or an initiative check, the spell finishes its duration in rounds, not hours.

Dont you technically roll initiative everytime someone walks by and other such things? awareness.. or is this more of a 'lasts until a battle' sort of initiative it is looking for?

 

[Hammerhead]

I know I don't roll initative every time the players meet an NPC. I tend to roll initiative only when it matters, like fights.

BTW, casters should just use Ray of Enfeeblement. It's awesome. And Evard's Black Tentacles.

 

[Pielorinho]

Dont you technically roll initiative everytime someone walks by and other such things? awareness.. or is this more of a 'lasts until a battle' sort of initiative it is looking for?

I've never seen anything to suggest that this is the case...can you show me where this would be suggested by the rules?

If it's suggested, I'm likely to find a rules interpretation that doesn't require it; and if I can't do that, I'll houserule it. But given that I've neither played in nor heard of a game in which people rolled initiative when going into every shop in town, I suspect that the rules have no such requirement.

Daniel

 

[Scion]

I've never seen anything to suggest that this is the case...can you show me where this would be suggested by the rules?

If it's suggested, I'm likely to find a rules interpretation that doesn't require it; and if I can't do that, I'll houserule it. But given that I've neither played in nor heard of a game in which people rolled initiative when going into every shop in town, I suspect that the rules have no such requirement.

Daniel

As far as I know initiative is used whenever you want to know who would act first in any situation.. You walk into a store to buy something and initiative is rolled (or can be, most groups dont do this, but for this example work with me ). This just shows when each person will be acting. Say that one of the characters wants to come in and try to do something sneaky but when people come in the shop owner always comes from the back to the front in a single round, which gets to happen first? Initiative is the easiest way to do this.

Now, initiative isnt always rolled explicitly, and its results are not always used. Sometimes people just wing it. But, even in those situations, it is there implicitly.

This is especially important if you dont allow people to talk outside of their initiative order. Who reacts first to what part of the conversation.

Often when in situations where I feel something might happen somehow I have everyone roll initiative and then generally ignore it until it becomes a problem. I trust my players enough not to metagame this but if I didnt I would simply pull numbers off of my random generated sheet and make the initiative list that way. Just to know who will react first to what, it simply makes things easier for me.

Maybe I do it wrong, but that is how initiative has always struck me. Something that is effectively always going all of the time but is only 'used' when necissary.

It is constantly changing because of peoples choices.. wait for X to happen, delay by looking around and taking in the situation or watch the sunset.. whatever..

I remember one example in the book about initiative where two people watch one another wearily in an ally.. each delaying by one point over and over to see who would make the first move. It isnt exactly combat, but initiative is being used anyway.

Just something I find interesting, hence my question

 

[Ron]

Yeah, there were some that needed fixing, like Etheral Jaunt ,Haste, and Shield, but why Fly, whose 10min/level duration has remained unchanged sence 1978? Why my beloved Heal? Why! WHY! (shakes fists at sky)(begins sobbing uncontrolably....)(blubler)(sniff..)

To me, Fly was always one of the greatest offenders. It transforms my nice fantasy games in something more akin to a superhero game. I ruled it out from my game about ten years ago.