D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Stun and Hold

[Fedifensor]

The new Hold Person spell allows a person to save versus its effects each round, but "This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity". So, what happens if the target is stunned (or dazed, for that matter)? Even the lowly Color Spray can keep several 4 HD targets stunned for 2-5 rounds, and there are several other ways to stun a target in D&D. Is the Stun/Hold tactic a viable one?

 

[gfunk]

Yes, by the rules it appears to be a good tactic to keep a target held.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I think it's against the intention of the rules.

That was put in so someone will miss that round even if me can make his save (Under certain circumstances, giving the save as a free action would mean that the spell would have been totally useless).

I'll still grant that save no matter what else you do to to target (except if you kill it, of course). Of course, though he will no longer be held, he will be stunned then.

 

[Fedifensor]

I think it's against the intention of the rules.

Actually, I don't think so. When held, you can still take strictly mental actions. Stun removes that capability, and I think they anticipated that when redesigning the spell. Of course, this means that you're expending significantly more effect on one target...instead of stunning the target, you could have just done a coup de grace.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

The new Hold Person spell allows a person to save versus its effects each round, but "This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity". So, what happens if the target is stunned (or dazed, for that matter)? Even the lowly Color Spray can keep several 4 HD targets stunned for 2-5 rounds, and there are several other ways to stun a target in D&D. Is the Stun/Hold tactic a viable one?

A held target saves against spells, etc. normally. One might argue that they automatically fail reflex saves, but there's no question that Fort and Will saves are rolled as usual. Color Spray is a Will save.

So if you hold a target first, then hit them with Color Spray, there's no added chance of them being effected by the second spell.

Conversely, if a target is effected by Color Spray and thus stunned, they may automatically fail their saves vs. Hold Person for the duration of the stunning, but since Hold Person allows a save every round, they'd save as normal once the Color Spray wore off. So the Color Spray doesn't change how susceptible to Hold Person the target is, either.

In both cases, when the target is effected by both spells, the result is exactly the same as if they'd been effected by one, with the exception of the tricky wizard casting Stilled and/or Silent spells. In that case, stunning trumps being held, which is useless.

...

I must be missing something, because I can't see where the "tactic" comes into play. The two spells seem to have no bearing on each other. Like casting Fly immediately followed by Levitate...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: [3.5] Stun and Hold

I must be missing something, because I can't see where the "tactic" comes into play. The two spells seem to have no bearing on each other.

It's because the "subsequent round" saves against Hold Person are not automatic, like the save against a Sleep or Disintegrate spell, or the initial save against Hold Person. It's more like the Strength check to break free of a Web - you have to make a decision and expend an action to attempt it.

When Held, you can make saves as normal (except Reflex saves) - when a save is allowed. The "subsequent round" saves are allowed if you take a full-round "escape Hold Person" action.

While stunned, you can't take any action... which may include the "escape Hold Person" action.

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Re: Re: Re: [3.5] Stun and Hold

While stunned, you can't take any action... which may include the "escape Hold Person" action.

-Hyp.

Yes, but while you're stunned, what difference does it make whether or not you're held? Instead of casting Hold Person and then Color Spray to try and keep them in the held state, why not just cast Color Spray in the first place? Then they're stunned, which is the best negative condition in the game. Where is the advantage to the tactic of casting the two spells together?

Likewise, if you cast Hold Person and then Color Spray, the spray does not effect the saves to Hold Person after it (the spray) has expired. So why not wait to cast Color Spray after the Hold expires, to extend the duration of the two spells as much as possible? Ready an action to cast Color Spray as soon as the target moves, for instance.

I still feel like I'm looking at one of those 3D pictures, just staring at a bunch of flowers while all the people around me see a water bucket.

 

[DonAdam]

The difference is that if you are held you are helpless, and someone can perform a coup de grace on you.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

The difference is that if you are held you are helpless, and someone can perform a coup de grace on you.

Aaaaaaaaaah.

Thank you.

 

[Fedifensor]

I've been in situations where it was nearly impossible to hit the bad guy (let alone kill him) even when he was stunned. That's one of the reasons why I was thinking about the stun/hold combo.