D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] The New Charge *sigh*

[DevoutlyApathetic]

On a side note, you are aware of the irony of someone labeled as "Devoutly Apathetic" actually starting a thread, much less taking a stand on an issue?

Eh.

(Yes.)

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

Re: Re: [3.5] The New Charge *sigh*

I think this is a great change. It makes the charge seem more realistic rather than having the person run into a side square or something.

Altogether I'm actually half and half on this one. The bad half is the friendly blocking thing.

The 'clear path' is how a charge should be. Running full speed at an enemy and swinging as hard as you can muster should be dangerous if the path is not clear.

My viewpoint is that this is a game. It's meant for me and my friends to get together and have some fun. My primary concern is that the rules make this easy and encourage it.

Simulationistic rules don't always lead to fun gameplay. I have no desire to explain what a garderobe is to my players. I'm fine with slightly unrealistic charging if it makes things a bit more fun.

I was tired for along time of being able to run through friends squares with no ill effect. C'mon now, even allies should impede movement. It isn't like they are going to make sure they get out of the way of your screaming charge.

My issue is that it ALL allies totally block charge but only SOME enemies do. If an enemy can choose to choose to move why can't my ally? Does insulting them first mean I can run them down?

If your party is doing unopposed overruns for such a cheesy reason, then it is the player's who have a problem. Hand them some Cheetos and dock them some experience.

I'd rather have rules that don't encourage silly situations.

Honestly the thing that disappointed me the most was the obviousness of the loophole. It exhibits a lack of forethought.

Mostly I'll just say you can move through one friendly square or overrun an enemy in a charge line but not both. It's pretty much what the rules say anyway and it doesn't leave the rules system showing through.

 

[Skinwalker]

Re: Re: [3.5] The New Charge *sigh*

I was tired for along time of being able to run through friends squares with no ill effect. C'mon now, even allies should impede movement. It isn't like they are going to make sure they get out of the way of your screaming charge.

Dodge, parry, thrust - man, this orc is a better fighter than most. Oh gods, that maniac barbarian is behind me. Is he gonna go nuts *again*, charging in screaming, blazing away with his axe? Parry - whew, close one, why won't this orc just die? Oh-oh, that barbarian growling now. He always growls right before he runs in screaming and swinging. He's gonna do it! (Dives to side as the barbarian goes by screaming and charging...)

If given the choice, I'd make sure to get out of the way.

 

[Rel]

Re: Re: [3.5] The New Charge *sigh*

I was tired for along time of being able to run through friends squares with no ill effect. C'mon now, even allies should impede movement. It isn't like they are going to make sure they get out of the way of your screaming charge.

If your party is doing unopposed overruns for such a cheesy reason, then it is the player's who have a problem. Hand them some Cheetos and dock them some experience.

I disagree (though not vehemently) for a couple of reasons.

First, as someone who GM's for a number of people who are "casual gamers" who don't play that often and don't have as tight a grasp of the rules as most of the ENWorld community does, this is an exception to the "friendlies don't block your movement" rule and that is not a good thing.

Secondly, and more applicable to my weekly game (where all the guys are pretty rules proficient), I think that the "charging right by a friendly" has plenty of cinematic flair and support. I've seen many a movie where the bad guy rises up to strike down one of the good guys, who may have just fallen or is simply distracted when suddenly one of the good guys is pushed out of the way of danger by another charging good guy who plows into the bad guy and saves the day.

That said, I could see some justification for having an ability check (a Jump check, a Tumble check or even a Reflex Save) because there should maybe be a chance for failure.

Let me also add that I don't think this is a huge deal either way and if this was the biggest house rule that I'd have to make with 3.5, I'd already have bought the books. As it is, I'm still a tad on the fence.

 

[Celtavian]

Re: Re: Re: [3.5] The New Charge *sigh*

Dodge, parry, thrust - man, this orc is a better fighter than most. Oh gods, that maniac barbarian is behind me. Is he gonna go nuts *again*, charging in screaming, blazing away with his axe? Parry - whew, close one, why won't this orc just die? Oh-oh, that barbarian growling now. He always growls right before he runs in screaming and swinging. He's gonna do it! (Dives to side as the barbarian goes by screaming and charging...)

If given the choice, I'd make sure to get out of the way.

A party with a character like this is understandable. If every one of your parties has a character like this, it becomes cheesy IMO.

Secondly, and more applicable to my weekly game (where all the guys are pretty rules proficient), I think that the "charging right by a friendly" has plenty of cinematic flair and support. I've seen many a movie where the bad guy rises up to strike down one of the good guys, who may have just fallen or is simply distracted when suddenly one of the good guys is pushed out of the way of danger by another charging good guy who plows into the bad guy and saves the day.

Never really implied that it would never be the case that a person charge through a friendly who jumps to the side. I'm just saying if it is a standard occurence done only because of the way it works from a metagame standpoint, it would be cheesy.

 

[Rel]

Never really implied that it would never be the case that a person charge through a friendly who jumps to the side. I'm just saying if it is a standard occurence done only because of the way it works from a metagame standpoint, it would be cheesy.

I guess I don't like the change partly because of what it implies about the philosophy and thinking that went into changing it.

First off, I don't think that Charging needed balancing by virtue of disallowing you to run through a friendly square. Charging is (to my way of thinking) already balanced by the fact that you must move in a straight line (one that is blocked by obstacles or unfriendlies) and the fact that you lose 2 points off of your AC until your next turn.

Further, one of two things is true: They either meant for the unopposed Overrun to render this not a problem in most cases, or they didn't. If it is the first case, then they shouldn't have made a rule alteration that is rendered irrelevant in virtually every case by another rule. If it is the second, then they aren't paying attention to their own rules very closely or didn't adequately playtest these rules and that bugs me even more.

As I said before, this isn't a huge deal or anything. I think it seems more important than it really is because it is a prime example of the sort of thing that is making me waffle on the whole 3.5 situation. I can't help but feel that I'm not going to be totally happy if I don't buy the books and I'm not going to be totally happy if I do buy the books.

I can't decide which option will make me more not happy.

 

[Artoomis]

Our group's first house rule will be to toss out the bit about friendlies blocking your path. It's does not fit with the rest of the rules - notably overun. It makes no sense at all (rules-wise or common sense) that an opponent can get out of your way but allies cannot.

I am also troubled by the change that makes you go to the nearest square that can threaten. This changes charging tactics significantly, for no apparent reason. Given the other restrictions on charging (only one attack, must be in a straight line, must stop when threatening the enemy, -2 AC) it seems a totally unneeded change. Nonetheless, our group will probably accept this rule as we prefer to game with the rules as written with the exception of the above first paragraph, mostly.

 

[Particle_Man]

evil dm moment

Unknown to party, "friend" is charmed/doppleganger/disguised assassin/whatever.

Dude behind "friend" charges, using that overrun maneuver.

"Friend" does NOT avoid, and may get an Aoo.

For every cheese, there is anti-cheese.

 

[Christian]

Re: evil dm moment

Unknown to party, "friend" is charmed/doppleganger/disguised assassin/whatever.

Dude behind "friend" charges, using that overrun maneuver.

"Friend" does NOT avoid, and may get an Aoo.

For every cheese, there is anti-cheese.

Which highlights the point, really. What do the standard rules say about this? Or suppose it's a standard move, rather than a charge? Since the doppleganger isn't really an ally, but an enemy, you can't move through his space, right? Woo-hoo! Enemy detection with 100% accuracy!

A character can move through an ally's space freely because, like an enemy facing an overrun attempt, the ally can choose to get out of the way during the move action. Presumably, and ally will generally choose to get out of the way* and an enemy will choose otherwise, but there shouldn't be any mechanical difference should they make the same choice.

*Parties with insane barbarians notwithstanding. "I charge to the attack." "NOOOOO!"

 

[Skinwalker]

Re: Re: evil dm moment

*Parties with insane barbarians notwithstanding. "I charge to the attack." "NOOOOO!"

Though I used barbarian in my example, the insane charger in my current party is a monk. Because of the effects of this tactic - namely receiving repeated beat-downs - I started calling him Le Ming, Master of the Lemming Fist.