D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] They didn't fix SR

[Al'Kelhar]

In 3.5E, DR's been modified and, by all accounts, "fixed", so that you really do need special weapons to bypass the damage reduction of nasty creatures. Fortunately, there's still a way to bypass DR.

However, it doesn't look like SR's changed at all from 3.0 to 3.5. I still maintain that SR is a poorly thought-out concept, and consideration should have been given to revising it in 3.5. Why is it a poorly thought-out concept? Because it is a simple "roll to succeed" concept (like most in D&D) but there is no way for characters to affect the roll - with the obvious exception of two feats (Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration).

Six reasons why the SR mechanic is deficient as compared to DR:

1. DR is damage reduction, and in 3.5E tends to max out at 15. You can still hurt things with DR (particularly now that Power Attack has been "enhanced" for two-handed weapons).

2. There's always a way of getting around DR - get the right weapon.

3. Creatures get saving throws against spells. There's no saving throws against physical attacks.

4. Spells are a finite resource; a spell-caster will be "gun-shy" about using them against monsters with SR. On the other hand, a character can make any number of physical attacks, and won't leave off attacking a monster with DR because they might just hurt it with a high damage roll.

5. A spellcaster can only cast one spell per round (no more hasted spellcasting), which means every round a spellcaster has only one chance of affecting a creature with SR. By the time a party is fighting creatures with DR, it will tend to include a character with multiple attacks who will use all attacks on the creature in an effort to overcome the DR.

6. The feats which assist in overcoming SR are limited in use - i.e. they only assist in overcoming SR. Spell casters have limited numbers of feats, and won't take ones which are useful only in a few circumstances. The feats which assist in overcoming DR are useful against creatures without DR. Fighters get lots of feats and are quite happy to invest in feats which have limited use anyway.

So why hasn't SR been "fixed" in 3.5E?

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[LGodamus]

well some of your reasoning is good, but instead of ranting ,like most people, why dont you suggest a fix...maybe some of us will like it.

 

[Hjorimir]

I love the SR system. I don't see the point of compairing a Resistance to a Reduction (I do see the connection between DR and the various Energy Resistances, though.)

Spell Penetration, Improved Spell Penetration, Magic Items (robe of the archmagi comes to mind) and there are some spells that just ignore SR altogether.

I don't see the issue.

 

[the Jester]

I, too, think SR is fine.

I think comparing SR to DR is like comparing apples and oranges: they're two entirely different beasties. DR is a modernization of the old "+1 or better weapon to hit" stuff, while SR is a modernization of the old "50% magic resistance" stuff.

As for your six reasons:

1. DR is damage reduction: this isn't a reason, it's a statement as to the major difference.

2. There's always a way of getting around DR: again, it's not a reason that SR's deficient/broken; there's also always a way of getting around it as well- get a higher caster level.

3. Saving Throws: The 'saving throw' against physical attacks is the attacker's attack roll- the save DC equates more directly to the target's AC than to anything else.

4. Spells are finite: they also tend to deal more damage in a single shot than a physical attack from a character of comparable level. Also, they're usually good at range; comparing this to ranged attacks, ammunition is a finite resource.

5. Multiple attacks: some creatures have DR at very low CRs, skeletons for instance. And casters can get more than one spell per round off- they just need to use Quicken Spell.

6. Limited use feats: Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration help against one of the most common special qualities that higher-end monsters have (SR). Yeah, that isn't every opponent, but fighters don't get to use all their feats in every battle either.

Basically, I disagree that DR and SR are analogous, and I don't see a need to fix SR. However, if you have a suggestion as to a way to improve the system, I'm willing to entertain it.

 

[takyris]

You could always give the caster an immediate Will Save (DC15+level) to "recover" the energy from the spell as it dissipiates around the SR-protected-target. On a success, the spell is not lost.

 

[ForceUser]

You could always give the caster an immediate Will Save (DC15+level) to "recover" the energy from the spell as it dissipiates around the SR-protected-target. On a success, the spell is not lost.

Nah. Failure is as much a part of D&D as success.

I'm not too fond of the all-or-nothing nature of SR myself; the easiest way through it is to simply be high level. Fortunately, it seems to scale nicely. Unfortunately, monsters tend to have SR far more often than players.

 

[Chronosome]

I don't agree with your SR opinion, but here're a few things that may tone down the problem for you.

* Allow a monster to use either its save OR its SR, not both.

* Make a monster have to take a move action to maintain it's SR for a round.

* Allow casters to add their primary spellcasting ability mod to caster level checks to overcome spell resistance.

* Like DR, give particular monsters' SR an "achilles heel", but using spell types instead of materials--like, say, a devil having SR 20/electricity...

Hope you find a house rule that works for you.
I'm fine with SR as is.

 

[Cabaras]

I don't have any problems with Spell Resistance as it exists.

OTOH, if I were going to change it, I would probably go down a route where having a specific material focus would allow you a bonus to your penetration roll (or eliminate it outright).

For example, for most people from the prime material plane, you might rule that having a locket of hair, a drop of blood, nail clippings or the like would allow you to bypass spell resistance, even that granted by a spell. There's strong background in fantasy and real world magic for that sort of thing.

You could do that sort of thing for demons as well, or make it some other material in the game world. (The logical alternative would be something's polar opposite. That is, to hurt a demon, you might need the tears of an angel).

Anyway, going down the material route is similar to the way materials work for damage reduction and would work fairly well.

Or, simply introduce an item in the game that also adds to spell resistance checks. Perhaps you can make a staff out of it...

Another possibility would be if you knew the lineage and/or true name of the critter you are trying to attack with spells, you bypass.

Essentually, going either of these routes would not change the rules for a random impromptu encounter, but would reward players for larger encounters where the players have done their homework. Both of these are fairly "traditional" routes, which can either be good or bad....how radical is your campaign world?

It sounds like you don't like the idea of feats affecting the roll, but you could add a feat that allows a character to blow an additional spell slot to add to their penetration roll...characters will go through spells faster, but individual spells are more likely to succeed.

The question you need to ask is what flavor are you actually looking for in YOUR campaign. If there's a new mechanism for bypassing SR, then decide who can do it...that is:

-- what do you need to do to bypass SR?
-- can any caster use this new method?
-- ...or only people with a specific feat?
-- ...or only people with a specific PrC.
-- whether or not the method changes depending on the type of target

*shrug* Hopefully that helps you thinking about possibilities.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Maybe you could find some way to factor in the level of the spell or something to make higher level spells more likely to get through...

Or maybe you could make it so SR 20 means they automatically make any saving throws against spells where the DC is 20 or less...

Or maybe you could cut the SR number by half and say that the new number is the bonus they get to all saves versus spells.

Just some ideas off the top of my head. I didn't think 'em through much, but maybe they're good "idea seeds" for a house rule you can make up.

 

[dok]

Don't compare SR & DR

1. DR is damage reduction, and in 3.5E tends to max out at 15. You can still hurt things with DR (particularly now that Power Attack has been "enhanced" for two-handed weapons).

You can still hurt things with SR. In fact, if you look at the values of various monster's SR as compared with their Challenge rating, you'll see an interesting relationship...

First, since you insist on comparing apples to oranges, lets' look at monster DR & CR. Low CR monsters are suggested to have DR x/5, High CR monsters are suggested to have DR x/15, and anything between probably gets x/10.

Now, with regards to SR, the 'standard' is usually CR + 10. For rare monsters that are supposed to be "highly resistant" to magic (like the Juggernaught or the Mind Flayer), their SR may be closer to CR +15. For monsters with "minor resistance", their SR may be closer to CR + 5. But overwhelmingly, SR is set around CR +10. Which means that the average monster with SR will ignore half the spells cast by the primary spellcasters.

"Unfair!" you say, "Casters can only cast one spell a round in 3.5!"

Except that higher levels spells are meant to be the equivalent of multiple attacks for fighters. Around the time the fighter gets his second iterative attack, the wizard gets Fireball, which is a major increase in power. Around the time the fighter picks up his third attack, the wizard has Cone of Cold. A fighter gets his fourth attack around the time of Horrid Wilting.

2. There's always a way of getting around DR - get the right weapon.

Unless the DR is -/x.

There is a way around SR: use the right spell. Not all spells allow for SR. Each spell says whether it does or not.

And even for spells that do allow SR, there's a way to beat it: roll high enough. As stated earlier, most SR is CR +10, which is around 50/50 chance for a primary spellcaster. The only folks really hurt by most SR are secondary spellcasters: Paladins & Rangers.

Here again, your analogy breaks down. SR isn't like DR; it's like a miss chance that the character can actually effect. If you want to compare DR to something, compare it to energy resistances, which are also a fixed amount, and in 3.5 work exactly the same on a per-attack basis.

3. Creatures get saving throws against spells. There's no saving throws against physical attacks.

Again, your comparison is flawed. Physical attacks don't have saving throws because you roll an attack versus an AC. The 'saving throwC' mechanic is identical to the 'attack:AC' mechanic, with the role of who rolls the die reversed.

And creatures don't get saving throws against some spells.

4. Spells are a finite resource; a spell-caster will be "gun-shy" about using them against monsters with SR. On the other hand, a character can make any number of physical attacks, and won't leave off attacking a monster with DR because they might just hurt it with a high damage roll.

Here again, it's a bad comparison, because you're leaving out some key points. A monster who is 'just hurt' because of DR will drain more party resources than the same monster without DR. How? By living longer, thus making more attacks & dealing more damage. A character can make any number of physical attacks, but he can't take an endless amount of attacks. Spells are a finite resource; so are hit points.

5. A spellcaster can only cast one spell per round (no more hasted spellcasting), which means every round a spellcaster has only one chance of affecting a creature with SR. By the time a party is fighting creatures with DR, it will tend to include a character with multiple attacks who will use all attacks on the creature in an effort to overcome the

I mentioned it earlier, but I'll revisit it again. A wizard casting higher level spells is the same as a fighter getting multiple attacks. The jump in power between 1st/2nd level spells & 3rd is not an accident. Same for what happens with 5th & 7th level spells compared to those one level lower.

A fighter taking three attacks versus a monster with DR will deal less damage with each hit, and thus the monster will live to deal more damage on the following round.

A wizard casting against a monster with SR will fail anywhere from 25% to 75% of the time, but assuming he's using strong spells, he will do tremendous damage.

6. The feats which assist in overcoming SR are limited in use - i.e. they only assist in overcoming SR. Spell casters have limited numbers of feats, and won't take ones which are useful only in a few circumstances. The feats which assist in overcoming DR are useful against creatures without DR. Fighters get lots of feats and are quite happy to invest in feats which have limited use anyway.

At higher levels, SR becomes much more common. Which means that feats that beat SR become more useful.

There are no feats 'which assist in overcoming DR' except for the ones that deal more damage. And until the 3.5 Power Attack fix appeared, Power Attack was a bad, bad choice for most combats. Fighters get lots of feats. OK. Wizards get four bonus feats. So we're down to Sorcerers (who have more spells, which translates into more "resources", so a 50% failure rate hurts them less), Clerics (who have a healthy selection of buffing/support spells for themselves & their party members to make them effective combatants, along with an Average BAB, heavy armor & two good saving throws) and Bards. (who will probably always suck, no matter what the situation)


Nope. SR is just fine. If you want to compare DR to something, compare it to Energy Resistances. If you really want to compare SR to something, compare it to a miss chance like Incorporeal or Displacement.

"Hey, Incorporeal is broken & unfair to fighters. It's a 50% miss chance even with a magic weapon. And the only way to negate that is with a weapon enhancement that only works for Incorporeal creatures. And the way magic weapons are priced, that throwaway, limited-use +1 effect is waay too costly at higher levels."

"Hey, miss chances from concealment are unfair to fighters. A wizard can fire area effect spells, but a fighter has to target his foes and have a chance of missing, no matter what level they are. And there's only one feat to help it: Blind Fighting. And that only helps in a very specalized situation. It needs to be fixed!"

< /sarcasm >