D&D 3.x [3.5] They didn't fix SR

[WizarDru]

This would be the first time I've heard that someone thought SR was broken. Nothing wrong with that, but I've got to admit, of all the hot-button topics of 3.0....this one never even made the top 20.

The spellcaster has plenty of control over his affect on a creature's SR....he takes a specific feat, casts a spell that is unaffected by SR or chooses a higher level spell. Grazzt should laugh at Melf's Acid Arrow, and under the existing system, he does. He should NOT like Maze. And he doesn't.

Some creatures are just going to be difficult for a spellcaster to deal with, if they're not designed to deal with them. Golems are natural-born mage killers, by design, but I don't hear anyone lamenting an Iron Golem's immunity.

At the levels where SR becomes an issue, most spellcasters have more than enough spells to deal with most situations. As other have pointed out, hit points are also a finite resource as well. Further, it's also been pointed out that a good spellcaster should have more than one way around SR. Buffing non-spellcasters or their weapons is one approach, using spells that don't target the SR creature is another (such as wall or summoning spells).

I could only see SR as a problem is you always expected a spell to land, regardless of the target. I don't much like the idea of SR making a spell an automatic save, since that hurts the spellcaster as much or more (SR 15 is easy to attain, particularly at high levels with holy/unholy aura) and makes some spells no longer worth trying.

 

[National Acrobat]

Yeah, but when the Wizard rolls 3 straight Natural 1's, there really isn't anything he can do about that. It fails.

 

[the Jester]

Re: Re: Don't compare SR & DR

In the interests of moving on to some fixes, just off the top of my head:

1. Spell level is added to the caster level check to overcome SR. Similar to 2E daemon magic resistance, and Heighten Spell has a new use.

2. Ability modifier is added to the caster level check to overcome SR. The spells and magic items which modifier relevant abilities become useful (does anyonetake fox's cunning now that its duration is 1 min/level?).

3. A specific spell or spells are used to lower SR - a la lower resistance from 2E Tome of Magic.

4. Magic items grant the benefits of Spell Penetration or Greater Spell Penetration feats.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar.

Aha! Here we go...

I long ago converted Lower Resistance for my campaign, and though I'll likely tweak it some in my campaign, here's my version:

LOWER RESISTANCE
Abjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz 5, Clr 5, Drd 7
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25’+5’/2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 2 rounds/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes (see text)

This spell causes the target to lose some degree of spell resistance for a time. Though it is not allowed a saving throw the target’s SR applies, but your spell penetration roll receives a +6 competence bonus. If you succeed the target’s SR drops by half your level.


The idea of magic items that give you a bonus to penetrate SR is a good one, too; in addition to items that just grant spell penetration or greater spell penetration, you could have (f'rinstance) an item that lets a spell ignore the SR of (insert creature type here) 2/day or something similar, or an item that lets you add the spell's level or your primary casting ability to your penetration roll. I don't think the system itself needs fixin' but I agree that more options are always better.

 

[Enceladus]

SR needed fixing? I did not know that. That is some wierd, wild, stuff.

 

[Planesdragon]

Because it is a simple "roll to succeed" concept (like most in D&D) but there is no way for characters to affect the roll - with the obvious exception of two feats (Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration).

Obvious fix: Allow for certain actions to give a bonus to rolls to beat DR.

You could also make SP and GSP give real caster-level bonuses if you like.

 

[FireLance]

All of you interested in spell resistance in 3.5e are invited to have a look at this thread. I think a wizard's options against spell resistant opponents just got a significant boost.

 

[WizarDru]

Yeah, but when the Wizard rolls 3 straight Natural 1's, there really isn't anything he can do about that. It fails.

Quite true. Welcome to the d20 system.

Seriously, when this happens, you change your tactics. The same rule applies to PCs as well and enemies, and if you've got a monk, cleric or arcanist of suitable level, you've got SR on their side, too.

Can't beat the Drow Priestess's SR? Then don't try. Trap her with a wall of ice, buff yourself or your companions, heal someone or do any number of things with your spells that aren't direct attack spells on the target. Can't disinitegate her? Then trap her in an obscurring mist or cloudkill.

Bad luck on the dice doesn't show a fault of the system.

 

[EricNoah]

Moving to Rules forum...

 

[National Acrobat]

Quite true. Welcome to the d20 system.

Seriously, when this happens, you change your tactics. The same rule applies to PCs as well and enemies, and if you've got a monk, cleric or arcanist of suitable level, you've got SR on their side, too.

Can't beat the Drow Priestess's SR? Then don't try. Trap her with a wall of ice, buff yourself or your companions, heal someone or do any number of things with your spells that aren't direct attack spells on the target. Can't disinitegate her? Then trap her in an obscurring mist or cloudkill.

Bad luck on the dice doesn't show a fault of the system.

Oh I agree. I am the DM of that group, not a player. But, I expect that players to come up with those tactics. I'm certainly not going to give them the tactics they need.

 

[nikolai]

Grazzt should laugh at Melf's Acid Arrow, and under the existing system, he does.

I just want to bring attention to Firelance's post, and directions to the Conjuration & SR thread: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57662. It seems like the above no longer applies. This is a major change, SR is no longer the spell stopper it was, it seems that there's now a significant get-out-clause in it - as long as you learn the right spells. Conjuration has also got a series of major upgrades in 3.5e and is a much stronger school than before.

As for this thread. The whole premise that SR isn't changed is wrong and reason number two is not valid.

Six reasons why the SR mechanic is deficient as compared to DR:

2. There's always a way of getting around DR - get the right weapon.

The change has some pretty big implications.

nikolai.