D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] They didn't fix SR

[rangerjohn]

So your saying all wizards should be from Thay? One country in one campaign world. What if your campaign takes place in greyhawk, homebrew or DragonStar? Never mind its going against the assumption pc's are heroes, the absolute closest to good you can be is true neutral with a Red Wizard.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Note that my example (epic) character has three PrCs, two of which are now Core -- Archmage and Red Wizard, both of which allegedly show up in the 3.5 DMG. Shadow Adept has a comparatively-minimal effect, by comparison to those two.

Somehow I doubt that players with PC Fighters when thrown against absurd ACs would think "Well, it's my own fault. My character should have been born in Thay, picked up Greater Weapon Focus and a few PrCs. Sticking with Fighter and expecting to hit things was just asking for trouble."

It is a neat schtick there, but I do not think it really helps in the big picture.

 

[NPC]

I like SR. It adds an element of fear and randomness to combat.

But it's incumbent upon the DM to use high SR creatures wisely, to make sure that he tailors his encounters according to the PC's level.

As far as some of the house rules, I like some of the magic focus/wondrous items presented here. There's nothing stopping a DM from putting a few of these choice items in his campaign.

Another option might also be to allow a spellcaster to use her primary ability in the SR roll. That would give her a slight bump in the SR check.

 

[Pax]

Somehow I doubt that players with PC Fighters when thrown against absurd ACs would think "Well, it's my own fault. My character should have been born in Thay, picked up Greater Weapon Focus and a few PrCs. Sticking with Fighter and expecting to hit things was just asking for trouble."

It is a neat schtick there, but I do not think it really helps in the big picture.

First off, Dhao gets more benefit from Archmage than from Red Wizard (+6 for all spells, versus +5 for only Enchantment spells).

Second off, at least in 3.0 rules (I haven't looked at the 3.5 SRD yet, though I'll be downloading it today), you don't have to be BORN in Thay, to become a red wizard. You need to pick up the Thayan regional feat "Tattoo Focus", which requires you to be from Thay or spend the skill points to have at least 2 ranks of "Knowledge, Local: Thay". For a wizard, that's all of 2 skill points -- a true pittance.

And at least for fighters, a natural 20 will always hit, no matter the foe's AC. Not so for SR .... if the enemy's SR is 21 points higher than your modifier for a caster level check ... don't bother rolling, you have no hope. That puts fighter-vs-superhigh-AC in a different category than spellcaster-vs-superhigh-SR.

Regardless, I do like allowing one's primary spellcasting attribute to contribute it's modifier to penetrating spell resistance, and will probably be trying that out soon.

 

[Philip]

The same arguments why D&D has ablative hit points should apply to spells.

I don't like SR for much of the same reasons mentioned before. I suggest applying this or one of the other standard D&D mechanisms to SR. I have tried to come up with two examples below.

Ablative SR
SR works like hit points. Each creature has a SR rating in the form of SR/resistance points. Depleting all of a creatures resistance points makes the SR go away. This makes it usefull for lesser casters to contribute spells as well, in effect saturating a creature's spell resistance.

Resistance points are (re)gained as hit points, and you could think of mechanisms similar to fast healing and regeneration which apply to SR.


Situational SR
SR works akin to AC. Each creature has a standard SR rating, but others have more ways of affecting a creature's SR. What should happen is the same thing when the fighters meet a high AC creature; they start tripping, flanking, aiding another, grappling etc. For example:

- Each spell cast on a SR creature in the same round lowers its SR by 2.
- Spells with the a descriptor antithetical to the creature (good vs. evil) add a +4 bonus to your caster level check.
- For spells that have a save, you can lower the save DC by 1 in return for a +1 bonus on caster level checks.
etc.

What do you think of these solutions? More suggestions are welcome.

 

[LokiDR]

The closest analogy to SR is concealment/incorpreal. You get past the random chance and then resolve the effect normally.

How would the fighter types feel if, at high levels, every creature was incorpreal with ghost touch only giving them 20% better chance or displaced so that it could not be unconcealed? I think they would be annoyed. This is why wizards are annoyed at SR.

My prefered solution to SR would be a replacement for saves and modified by all those things that modify saves. This would be faster than multiple rolls, and there are things you can do to affect the SR check. Boost your save DCs or SR check? Some will be useful some time, and some the other. And there will always be those spells which don't allow either SR and/or a save. Simpler and more interesting, IMO.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I like SR. It adds an element of fear and randomness to combat.

But it's incumbent upon the DM to use high SR creatures wisely, to make sure that he tailors his encounters according to the PC's level.

Not sure if randomness would qualify as a worth while goal to justify adding an extra mechanic. Fear, yes. Unprediactability, maybe.

I can say that my personal experience is exactly the opposite of yours. I have very reliable tactics for dealing with SR, and I do not deviate from them unless I am desperate (or truly have nothing better to do than cast a MM on a vague hope). SR makes life more boring for my spellcasters.

Most creatures with SR have multiple other unusual abilities as well. I am highly skeptical that SR adds to the flavor of the encounter in meaningful ways. Those critters are pretty frightening and unpredicatable based on their other merits.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Philip,

Ablative SR is an intriguing idea. The downside IMO is that it adds a lot of complexity and bookkeeping.

 

[NPC]

I'm interested in hearing the difference between randomness and unpredictability.

Sometimes the rogue has to fight undead or constructs, so his sneak attack doesn't work. Sometimes the melee based fighter has to whip out her longbow and perform ranged attacks, doing much less damage than she normally would. Sometimes characters have to overcome challenges while they're at a disadvantage.

The DM has many tools he can use to create different kinds of challenges for the party. I think high SR creatures are one of those tools.

Now if every encounter you face includes creatures with high SR, I think that's more of a failing of the DM, not the SR mechanic.

The ablative SR idea seems pretty cool, though. Maybe the "SR hit points" would be the creature's CR value in spell levels. So a CR 15 creature could absord 15 spell levels of spells before his SR went *poof*. I would still force the spellcaster to make an SR check per the normal rules, but if she failed, you'd reduce the SR hit points of the creature.

Anyone else have any ideas?

 

[Fenes 2]

Hmm... First, SR is only a problem if your DM is overdoing it - which is the case if you have no fun due to SR being too common. A few words to the DM can (and should) solve that problem easily. And if your DM, upon told that you hate to encounter creature after creature with SR, still persists in fielding them, change DMs - apparently he does not care about your fun.

Second, as others have said, enough spells ignore SR.

Third, one feat (Fortify Spell from FR Unapproachable East or the identical "Envelop the Wall" from Kalamar's Player's Guide) solves the "problem" of SR, at least for a sorcerer.

So, I don't really see SR as a problem.