Yeah yeah, or hit him with a distracting spell, or stick him on the back of a horse galloping across a tightrope between two sailboats in a monsoon. There are plenty of modifiers for skill checks and DCs, but they're just that-- modifiers. The base DC is static.Pax said:
D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Tumble
- Thread starter Delgar
- Start date
how about 2 ogres
I find that my dm's ability to put a 2nd ogre a little behind the 1st one really, really, really negates my tumble ability.
eg
rogue tumbles past 1st ogre. then crit strike flanking etec etc hits the ogre mightly.
this is followed up by the ogre behind who beats the heck out of the rogue. that tends to make the rogue think twice about tumbling past in the future.
so how many things do you want to change in the game? how about changing not mechanics but the style you play, or are mechanics all important. (ooh contraversial)
I find that my dm's ability to put a 2nd ogre a little behind the 1st one really, really, really negates my tumble ability.
eg
rogue tumbles past 1st ogre. then crit strike flanking etec etc hits the ogre mightly.
this is followed up by the ogre behind who beats the heck out of the rogue. that tends to make the rogue think twice about tumbling past in the future.
so how many things do you want to change in the game? how about changing not mechanics but the style you play, or are mechanics all important. (ooh contraversial)
MarauderX
Explorer
Re: how about 2 ogres
Heh. DMs can always find a way to use strategy to great effect too, making a Tumble DC static, relative to Reflex or BAB kinda unimportant. I would prefer the dynamic (BAB) as it relates to melee combat, but won't cry if a DM decides to go with a higher static. I would think DMs would also throw a bunch of tumbling ninjas with mobility at the tumbling rogue party to have the effect of the old kung fu movies, where everyone is fighting more for superior position to get the advantage of flanking and backstab.
I don't wanna see DMs using goofy strategies just to frustrate the party tumblers, such as two ogres in a row when they could be pummeling the party fighter side-by-side. Readying an action vs. the tumbler is kind of a waste if that PC is content to fire some arrows from the back lines that round, or goes around him altogether.
Magac said:
Heh. DMs can always find a way to use strategy to great effect too, making a Tumble DC static, relative to Reflex or BAB kinda unimportant. I would prefer the dynamic (BAB) as it relates to melee combat, but won't cry if a DM decides to go with a higher static. I would think DMs would also throw a bunch of tumbling ninjas with mobility at the tumbling rogue party to have the effect of the old kung fu movies, where everyone is fighting more for superior position to get the advantage of flanking and backstab.
I don't wanna see DMs using goofy strategies just to frustrate the party tumblers, such as two ogres in a row when they could be pummeling the party fighter side-by-side. Readying an action vs. the tumbler is kind of a waste if that PC is content to fire some arrows from the back lines that round, or goes around him altogether.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Re: how about 2 ogres
Not contraversial [sic]; just impolite
. Although I certainly can use some tactics lessons for my game, I don't want to have to change NPCs' tactics to account for illogical rules.
Mechanics in a game need to take into consideration 4 things, I think:
1) Elegance (simple to understand and to implement)
2) Plausibility (mirror how you'd think things would work if they really were happening
3) Panache (allow and encourage cool stuff to happen).
4) Balance (there's no one killer strategy good for all situations).
Tumble, as written, is very elegant, but suffers on plausibility and panache and balance. It's plausible to me that it's harder to tumble past the hill giant barbarian than past the kobold, which isn't reflected in the rules. And all-tumble all-the-time grows stale, hurting panache. And it becomes a surefire strategy for any character than has access to tumble.
The proposed changes are less elegant: adding in an opposed roll, or a dynamic DC, makes every tumble attempt take longer. However, it increases plausibility by making it harder to tumble past the hill giant barbarian than past the kobold. And it sometimes increases panache: it's cool for the high-level monk to be able to trip the high-level rogue who tries to tumble away. And it increases balance: tumbling is no longer the default tactic for any character that can take tumble as a class skill.
So yes, it's possible to readjust tactics to match mechanics. But that's putting the cart before the horse: the mechanics should serve the scene, not the other way around.
Daniel
Magac said:
Not contraversial [sic]; just impolite
. Although I certainly can use some tactics lessons for my game, I don't want to have to change NPCs' tactics to account for illogical rules.Mechanics in a game need to take into consideration 4 things, I think:
1) Elegance (simple to understand and to implement)
2) Plausibility (mirror how you'd think things would work if they really were happening
3) Panache (allow and encourage cool stuff to happen).
4) Balance (there's no one killer strategy good for all situations).
Tumble, as written, is very elegant, but suffers on plausibility and panache and balance. It's plausible to me that it's harder to tumble past the hill giant barbarian than past the kobold, which isn't reflected in the rules. And all-tumble all-the-time grows stale, hurting panache. And it becomes a surefire strategy for any character than has access to tumble.
The proposed changes are less elegant: adding in an opposed roll, or a dynamic DC, makes every tumble attempt take longer. However, it increases plausibility by making it harder to tumble past the hill giant barbarian than past the kobold. And it sometimes increases panache: it's cool for the high-level monk to be able to trip the high-level rogue who tries to tumble away. And it increases balance: tumbling is no longer the default tactic for any character that can take tumble as a class skill.
So yes, it's possible to readjust tactics to match mechanics. But that's putting the cart before the horse: the mechanics should serve the scene, not the other way around.
Daniel
Cinerarium
First Post
Re: Re: how about 2 ogres
This is going to hurt Tellerve, who's trying to convince me about his views on tumble as well, but I don't buy that it's not ALREADY harder for someone to tumble past the hill giant barbarian than the kobold.
First, the giant's got reach on his side, so he'll get the AoO earlier than the kobold. Second, if he's at all clever (which I agree is a stretch for a hill giant barbarian) he'll be thinking of his superior reach and investing in feats like combat reflexes, so he'll get more AoOs (at least under 3.5, correct me if I'm wrong).
And I don't have a problem with dropping a trip on a tumbler to stop them either, instead of a regular hit.
That said, the static DC is a little low, but with the new modifiers for terrain etc. that could be overcome. Perhaps a modifier for the size of the creature occupying the square you're tumbling through, reflecting that there's less terrain to move through?
My 2 cents.
Cin
Pielorinho said:
This is going to hurt Tellerve, who's trying to convince me about his views on tumble as well, but I don't buy that it's not ALREADY harder for someone to tumble past the hill giant barbarian than the kobold.
First, the giant's got reach on his side, so he'll get the AoO earlier than the kobold. Second, if he's at all clever (which I agree is a stretch for a hill giant barbarian) he'll be thinking of his superior reach and investing in feats like combat reflexes, so he'll get more AoOs (at least under 3.5, correct me if I'm wrong).
And I don't have a problem with dropping a trip on a tumbler to stop them either, instead of a regular hit.
That said, the static DC is a little low, but with the new modifiers for terrain etc. that could be overcome. Perhaps a modifier for the size of the creature occupying the square you're tumbling through, reflecting that there's less terrain to move through?
My 2 cents.
Cin
Re: Re: Re: how about 2 ogres
Okay, the Hill Giant has a 10' reach, plus 5' for the Giant's occupied square, plus 5' to get directly behind him. Tumble, OTOH, lets you move ... 20' without an AoO, somewhere during your move. So, with the one tumble check, you can get behind the Hill Giant.
The Kobold, you don't move as far, granted ... but it's still a single tumble check.
Both checks are DC 15 (if you don't go directly through the opponent's square, ofc). Both actions are, therefor, a single roll of Tumble skill vs DC 15. Thus, both are identical in terms of difficulty.
Irrelevant; Tumble lets you move and not trigger ANY AoOs.
And how exactly do you gET this attack? Either you're giving up yor regular action (potentially a full attack) in order to ready a single attack against MAYBE being tumbled past, or you're hasted -- because there's just no way you're going to be getting an AoO against a dedicated tumbler.
Cinerarium said:
Okay, the Hill Giant has a 10' reach, plus 5' for the Giant's occupied square, plus 5' to get directly behind him. Tumble, OTOH, lets you move ... 20' without an AoO, somewhere during your move. So, with the one tumble check, you can get behind the Hill Giant.
The Kobold, you don't move as far, granted ... but it's still a single tumble check.
Both checks are DC 15 (if you don't go directly through the opponent's square, ofc). Both actions are, therefor, a single roll of Tumble skill vs DC 15. Thus, both are identical in terms of difficulty.
Irrelevant; Tumble lets you move and not trigger ANY AoOs.
And how exactly do you gET this attack? Either you're giving up yor regular action (potentially a full attack) in order to ready a single attack against MAYBE being tumbled past, or you're hasted -- because there's just no way you're going to be getting an AoO against a dedicated tumbler.
Tarril Wolfeye
First Post
Pax said:
Not any more. The Hill Giant has 10' reach plus 10' for the Giant's occupied square plus 5' to get behind him. That's 25' and you can just tumble 20'. So he WILL get an AoO.
It gets even worse with bigger opponents.
Tarril Wolfeye said:
Even so; the first 5' of his reach doesn't generate an AoO -- because you don't trigger an AoO for just ENTERING a threatened area, only for moving INSIDE it.
The further 20' needed to reach his other side also doesn't provoke an AoO, because you tumble.
Net result: get to the giant's other side w/o an AoO, all for the low, low, overly-easy static DC of 25.
Code:
[color=green]O[/color] [color=white]= Open Square[/color]
[color=red]O[/color] [color=white]= Open Square just vacated by PC[/color]
[color=blue]G[/color] [color=white]= Giant-occupied square[/color]
[color=red]G[/color] [color=white]= Giant-occupied square just vacated by PC[/color]
[color=green]X[/color] [color=white]= Threatened Square[/color]
[color=red]X[/color] [color=white]= Threatened Square just vacated by PC[/color]
[color=red]P[/color] [color=white]= Player Character
Step Zero: starting position
No AoO is provoked, as the character has not even moved yet.[/color]
[color=green]OOOOOOOOOO
OOOO[/color][color=red]P[/color][color=green]OOOOO
OOXXXXXXOO
OOXXXXXXOO
OOXX[/color][color=blue]GG[/color][color=green]XXOO
OOXX[/color][color=blue]GG[/color][color=green]XXOO
OOXXXXXXOO
OOXXXXXXOO
OOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOO[/color]
[color=white]Step One:
No AoO, as this movement is not "within" the Giant's threatened
area, and merely moving [b]into[/b] a threatened area does not
prompt an AoO.[/color]
[color=green]OOOOOOOOOO
OOOO[/color][color=red]O[/color][color=green]OOOOO
OOXX[/color][color=red]P[/color][color=green]XXXOO
OOXXXXXXOO
OOXX[/color][color=blue]GG[/color][color=green]XXOO
OOXX[/color][color=blue]GG[/color][color=green]XXOO
OOXXXXXXOO
OOXXXXXXOO
OOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOO[/color]
[color=white]Step Two:
At this point, the PC begins using his Tumble; 5' of tumble-
protected movement occurs.[/color]
[color=green]OOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOO
OOXX[/color][color=red]X[/color][color=green]XXXOO
OOXX[/color][color=red]P[/color][color=green]XXXOO
OOXX[/color][color=blue]GG[/color][color=green]XXOO
OOXX[/color][color=blue]GG[/color][color=green]XXOO
OOXXXXXXOO
OOXXXXXXOO
OOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOO[/color]
[color=white]Step Three:
Another 5' of tumble-protected movement, totalling 10' so far;
the DC is 25, because at this point, the PC enters the Giant's own
square(s).[/color]
[color=green]OOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOO
OOXXXXXXOO
OOXX[/color][color=red]X[/color][color=green]XXXOO
OOXX[/color][color=red]P[/color][color=blue]G[/color][color=green]XXOO
OOXX[/color][color=blue]GG[/color][color=green]XXOO
OOXXXXXXOO
OOXXXXXXOO
OOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOO[/color]
[color=white]Step Four:
5' more tumble-protected movement, totalling 15' now.[/color]
[color=green]OOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOO
OOXXXXXXOO
OOXXXXXXOO
OOXX[/color][color=red]G[/color][color=blue]G[/color][color=green]XXOO
OOXX[/color][color=red]P[/color][color=blue]G[/color][color=green]XXOO
OOXXXXXXOO
OOXXXXXXOO
OOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOO[/color]
[color=white]Step Five:
The last 5' of movement is, as above, protected by Tumble.
Note that the PC has arrived at his desired location, and doesn't
need to tumble at all anymore.
In fact, no AoOs have yet been provoked by movement,
presuming the DC 25 tumble check is made.[/color]
[color=green]OOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOO
OOXXXXXXOO
OOXXXXXXOO
OOXX[/color][color=blue]GG[/color][color=green]XXOO
OOXX[/color][color=red]G[/color][color=blue]G[/color][color=green]XXOO
OOXX[/color][color=red]P[/color][color=green]XXXOO
OOXXXXXXOO
OOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOO[/color]
Thus, the entire movement is like this:
[color=green]OOOOOOOOOO
OOOO[/color][color=red]O[/color][color=green]OOOOO
OOXX[/color][color=red]X[/color][color=green]XXXOO
OOXX[/color][color=red]X[/color][color=green]XXXOO
OOXX[/color][color=red]G[/color][color=blue]G[/color][color=green]XXOO
OOXX[/color][color=red]G[/color][color=blue]G[/color][color=green]XXOO
OOXX[/color][color=red]P[/color][color=green]XXXOO
OOXXXXXXOO
OOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOO[/color]So; there you have it, a tumble past a creature with a 10' face and 10' reach, provoking no AoO's whatsoever.
Last edited:
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Or 15, if you go around rather than through the giant.
But it must be pointed out that you're still inside his threatened area. The technique works for setting up a flanking situation, but it still doesn't allow you to double move completely through the threatened area and out the other side without drawing an AoO...
-Hyp.
