[3.5E] In The Works - Changes to the Titan

[Celtavian]

re

I guess every single "random encounter" must be meticulously planned, then? In order to make sure every creature has all these wonderful immunities, the DM has to heavily metagame and suspend disbelief. "Really, that barely intelligent creature got it's paws on a ring of freedom of movement?"

Random encounters are there to deplete resources, not to be exceedingly difficult for high level characters. I don't intend for them to be so challenging that I become unhappy when they players easily defeat them. In fact, I expect the players to easily defeat random encounters.

I also don't have powerful creatures attack randomly wandering characters. Powerful dragons and other powerful creatures do not show up on my random encounter lists because I don't see why a highly intelligent monster would put itself at risk by attacking a group of well-armed and armored adventurers. If they show up at all, I will take the time to plan what they will do and how they will react should their plan be foiled. It is how I like to play.

I become unhappy only if the players easily defeat a well-prepared encounter with a single spell. I can't say as I enjoy that, one of the reasons I was so against the Harm spell.

Lots and lots of DMs have had trouble challenging their high-level players, even when they advance creatures and boost their stats and give them class levels so they have more gear (and more hp, better saves, more potent attacks, etc) and still have trouble. It sound slike you just wanted to insult the vast majority of "lesser" DMs.

It didn't help that high level got a lot less playtesting than low-level, which explains why wusses like the marilith got into the original Monster Manual.

I didn't mean to insult them. I'm abrasive sometimes. I just feel like they are making the mistake of doing alot of straight up fighting. Enter the room, everyone rolls initiative and the fighting begins without thinking about what is going on. I am hoping that the game designers do not support this kind of play.

When I plan an encounter, I sit down and think it out. I learn my players capabilities and think about how I can counter them without being cheesy.

There are some principles that I follow:

1. Hit them so hard that the cleric has to heal the fighter or he is going down quick. Don't let the cleric cast his death spells and give him just enough time to ward his people against them.

2. If the wizard shows his head early, make him target number one. No one likes a wizard, destroy them early. Teach your wizards to keep their power veiled. Overuse of their power will let the big bad know what he is dealing with and how high a priority it is to kill him.

3. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. I learn from my players. If they use a good tactic that my villains can employ, it becomes part of my repertoire.

4. Don't have the big bad show his face. The big bad should be testing the players. If the big bad is a dragon, he should be doing fly by attacks and running if the character pull the old scry and teleport in. Don't even have him spend one round attacking. he knows better than to fight against people capable of teleporting in on him. He should port out at first opportunity. Other big bads should be sending minions and spies to watch the party to see what they can dish out and who is dangerous.

5. For high level games, scrying counters are not a luxury, they are a must. Even giant kings should be paying wizards to fortify certain chambers of their dwellings with counters to porting and scrying. Epic level games, the giant king should be receiving a daily mind blank. I liken it to the cold war when Russia and the U.S. were always trying to outdo the others technology. If a big bad has something to lose, he will make sure to protect it accordingly. In D&D, that means counters to scrying. It is the nature of the high level game.

6. Time is the DM's friend. Keep a sense of urgency so the players are not able to spend alot of time recovering spells and making or purchasing items.

7. In 3rd edition, terrain is important. You can give an enemy or the PC's can an advantage by choosing the type of terrain for the encounter. High places when the party doesn't have a means of flying the whole group. Narrow places to limit the number of people who can attack it or move to flank it.

I follow these principles, and probably more that I cannot recall off the type of my head. I haven't been outmatched by my players. I understand their are alot of younger DM's who don't quite have a grasp on running heroic combat. I made plenty of mistakes when I was younger in the learning process.

As a longtime DM, I just don't like some of they changes they are making to waterdown the game. I have adapted, and all these younger, less experienced DM's will eventually adapt as well. They will find that is not as hard as they think to design challenging encounters.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Upper_Krust!

Hiya mate!

I assume they did it for CR reasons (eg they've got their own stock 20th-level PCs sitting somewhere).

I am sure there could be ways round hitting a target CR without arbitrarily warping ability scores.

I've always taken those stat ranges as minimums (there are a lot of creatures that exceed those ranges).

I don't mind exceeding the limits provided there is some sort of rudimentary consistency and if something deviates from that consistency then its explained why.

Besides, it's a titan, so it's allowed to have high stats. Just as long as it doesn't rival Goku

It's two steps removed from a deity (as opposed to the solar, which is only one step). At least, IMO.

You could almost say a Solar was equal to a Quasi-deity and a Titan was equal to a Hero-deity.

Oops ... I fixed the typo. Yeah, I meant low defense.

 

[drnuncheon]

But I don't want to see fighters reduced to playing meat shields whenever they run up against DR they don't happen to have the weapon for.

...as opposed to what they do now when they run up against DR they don't have the weapon for, right?

J

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi drnuncheon mate!

That's for a Medium-sized creature advanced to Huge, U_K! If you're going to go by anything, you should be looking at the 'typical creature statistics by size' charts (the ones I'm looking at are in the MM2, since the FF doesn't have them).

I'm on top of that book like King Kong on a skyscraper.

So many incongruities in those charts.

After all, going by the 'size increase' chart, halflings and gnomes ought to have -4 to their strength scores instead of only -2, and -2 to their Con as well.

Exactly.

However, the AC/Attack modifiers for size should be greater* and Dexterity bonus should add to Attack instead of Strength.

*At least +2/-2 (small); +4/-4 (Tiny); +8/-8 (Diminutive) etc.

...of course you are probably better off not messing with this until 4th Edition, the problems tend to snowball when you start reworking stuff.

Clearly members of those races are exceptionally strong and hardy for their size - just as the titans seem to be.

Other than the fact that pretty much all smaller creatures are intrinsically stronger and tougher for their size there is no reason why gnomes or halflings should deviate from the rules with 'special treatment'.

In any case, going by the MM2 charts, a 'typical' Huge outsider has Str 28-29 and Con 20-21.

Which is about ten points below the (3.5) Pit Fiends stats, nevermind the Titan!

The titan exceeds those by quite a bit - but they're supposed to be tough customers!

I always wondered why the Storm Giant was stronger than the Titan in 3.0. At the very least that sorts that out.

They've got "great physical strength" and are of "heroic proportions", after all, and if a human of 'heroic proportions' can have +10 (or more) strength over an average human, it's not too much of a stretch for titans to have +10 (or more) strength over the average Huge outsider.

As for the enormous Con, they are "closer to the wellsprings of life than mere mortals", which suggests to me that the designers didn't just decide to give a high Con arbitrarily - they wanted to represent the titan's near-deific toughness. They are, after all, based on the titans of Greek myth, and anyone who can survive having his liver torn out on a daily basis deserves a nice high Con in my book.

One problem is inflation. I mean I get that the Titans supposed to be strong, but proportionally its the equivalent of a human with a 27 strength. I get that its tough, but proportionally its the equivalent of a human with a 31 constitution.

If we apply the same reverse engineering to the Pit Fiend then its equivalent to a human with a 29 strength and a 23 constitution.

They encountered the exact same problems in the epic level rules (where small rules problems are magnified) wherein they realised they made such a mess of outlining damage that they had to arbitrarily inflate not only strength but also base damage for many of the monsters.

If a 39 is what it needs to be to keep the titan a CR 21 challenge - and to live up to the designer's expectations - then that's what it ought to be!

If they have their mind set on meeting a target CR why not give it more Hit Dice.


If they had quadrupled the Hit Dice* and doubled the damage per size category from the beginning we wouldn't be in this mess.

*and divorced BAB from Hit Dice in the process.

 

[Valiantheart]

This that and the other thing:

Seems like TWF was further given the shaft in 3.5. One feat is nice, but the new PAttack rules really favor the two hander. Two handers already had the advantage but with the new pattack rules a two hander can handle both bigger monsters and hordes far better than the dual wielder. Plus they can get whirlwind if really pressed.

Spring attack? I wonder how useful the fighters spring attack will be in this instance when the titan probably has reach of at least 15.

The new DR rules have me confused and worried about the golf bag of weapons. 15 DR should be exceedingly rare....Great Wyrm rare.

Now if a fighter has a +5 weapon and the Titan tries to sunder with his +3 Lawful hammer he should still automatically fail because he lacks the necessary enchantment right?

The sunder rules make it to easy to sunder weapons. It seems to be a rule to benefit monsters and not the PCs. Maybe equipment needs more hps or something.

I'm tired of seeing all these str and natural armor boosts in existing monsters. I thought one of the points of D&D in particular and fantasy in general was that certain rare individual (the PCS) are capable of being as powerful as the monsters in the world for whatever reason (magic, divine blood). Now it doesnt matter how powerful your 20th level fighter is or what type of equipment he has, he can never be as strong, fast or tough as the monsters he faces. That +6 belt of strength is meaningless when faced with a str 43 titan. I am capable of believing a 200 ft dragon could lift mountains but when a 12 foot Pit Fiend's is nearly as strong at 38 simply for the arbitrary reason of boosting his attack and damage i am a little perturbed.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The new DR rules have me confused and worried about the golf bag of weapons. 15 DR should be exceedingly rare....Great Wyrm rare.

Titans are probably even less common than great wyrms.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Really? Is that "not too hard to do... assuming you start with an 18 or 20 int"? If that's the case, you should revise your assumptions. Most D&D characters don't start off with an effective 18 and don't have the option to start off as a +2 int race.

If you don't assume an 18 int, you're left with +5 level increases, +6 stat increases, and a minimum of 4 successive wishes or a +4 tome. And that's starting with a 17. I wouldn't call that easy.

For a wizard, for whom Int is everything, starting with a 17 Int is easy to do, even under low point buy. Saying otherwise is rather disingenuous.

Since when are creatures balanced on the assumption that a character will have any prestige class at all--let alone one that grants spell power? Are single classed wizards supposed to be viable characters? If so, let's leave Spellpower at the door. If not, let's stop pretending.

I was pointing out an optimal situation. I also threw out a less-optimized save DC character with a lower Int, no spell power, and possibly Spell Focus instead of GSF, for a save DC of 30.

You need Greater Spell Penetration as well in order to have that 42% chance of yours.

If you're the sort of wizard who throws save-or-die spells, you should have GSP.

Which are the "save or die" will save spells again? The only ones I know of are Wierd, and Phantasmal Killer and they both give fort saves as well. The failed will saves you're talking about (even Dominate Monster) are not properly save or die; they're save or consequences. The Titan stands a very good chance of living to fight another day.

Ah, are we trying to resolve debates by pedantry now? You knew what I meant. "Save-or-die," in this case, is "save or encounter ends." It's common enough terminology on these boards. The encounter ends if the opponent is dominated. Weird is an example of a save-or-die Will spell, if you really need one, as you yourself pointed out.

In any case, you're talking 3 rounds of 8th or 9th level will save spells for an ordinary wizard before there's even a 50/50 chance that he's ended the combat (although not necessarily killed the Titan).

Right, and that's fine. You're talking about one 20th-level PC's contribution toward defeating a CR 21 monster. I'm simply stating that there's a 45% chance that two 8th- or 9th-level spells (hardly 20% of a party's resources) will end the encounter without any contribution from the rest of the party calculated in. Throw in another three PCs working toward taking the thing out, and I think it's a fair encounter.

 

[drnuncheon]

However, the AC/Attack modifiers for size should be greater* and Dexterity bonus should add to Attack instead of Strength.

*At least +2/-2 (small); +4/-4 (Tiny); +8/-8 (Diminutive) etc.

Hmm. I can swat a fly, and I know my BAB+Strength isn't enough to give me a +16...and that's without counting the fly's Dex or anything else.

Remember that Dex goes up as size goes down, so the AC benefits do go up faster than they look like at that chart.

Other than the fact that pretty much all smaller creatures are intrinsically stronger and tougher for their size there is no reason why gnomes or halflings should deviate from the rules with 'special treatment'.

But, see, it's not a rule for making gnomes. It's a rule for making creatures of one size a different size. A halfling or a gnome is not just a Small-sized human, and trying to use the Advancement table to prove something like this is like trying to get a synergy bonus on your dispel check: sure, you can do it, but it's not going to give you results that are intended in the system.

Which is about ten points below the (3.5) Pit Fiends stats, nevermind the Titan!

Are you saying that the pit fiend is a 'typical' Huge outsider? It'd say it's an example of an outsider that is supposed to be extra tough - like the Titan.

See, those charts aren't there to limit you. They're there to say "this is the average". Orcs are stronger than the average humanoid - they have a racial average of 14 - but that doesn't mean that the chart is wrong, it just means that, well, orcs are stronger than average.

One problem is inflation. I mean I get that the Titans supposed to be strong, but proportionally its the equivalent of a human with a 27 strength. I get that its tough, but proportionally its the equivalent of a human with a 31 constitution.

But it's not a human, so comparing it to a human is a bit misleading, don't you think? If you look at the outsider chart, you see that outsiders tend to be stronger and tougher than humanoids of the same size category, and that they get even stronger in comparison as the sizes move up.

If we apply the same reverse engineering to the Pit Fiend then its equivalent to a human with a 29 strength and a 23 constitution.

Again, you're misleading yourself here. Pit fiends aren't human. All that means is that a pit fiend with medium size would have Str 29 and Con 23. So? That doesn't prove anything except that the strength and toughness of a pit fiend isn't solely from size.

If they have their mind set on meeting a target CR why not give it more Hit Dice.

Because that would be like giving it more levels, and have all sorts of other unintended side effects.

If they had quadrupled the Hit Dice* and doubled the damage per size category from the beginning we wouldn't be in this mess.

*and divorced BAB from Hit Dice in the process.

And so BAB would come from...where? An arbitrary number chosen at random? No thanks, I had my fill of that back in the days of 1e...

Spring attack? I wonder how useful the fighters spring attack will be in this instance when the titan probably has reach of at least 15.

If you have Spring Attack and you're not doing something to increase your mobility, then you're missing out on the benefit of the feat when faced with larger opponents. Boots of Striding and Springing will mean you can move in 30', attack, and move back out without a problem.

So, with a reasonably intelligent combatant who knows how to maximize the benefits of his abilities, I think the feat will be plenty useful.

J

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Shard: Think of it this way. Does a resistance that a warrior can overcome with virtual certainty all the time against any creature vaguely within his capacity to face contribute to a "heroic" game?

And does removing 5-15 points of damage form every swing make things heroic. Well lets see heck no.

I'm basically going to use this post to repsond to the 9 or 10 responses that basically said. Tough fights are heroic, being heroic isn't suppsoed to be easy etc. So um sorry ruleslawyer for using your post in this.

Yeah tough fights are more heroic, freakin yipee. That's what the DM is for giving the party appropriate challenges. Does the new DR in any way facilitate that. No, in fact it hurts that dramatically. Because it has noting to do with making the fight tough and everything to do with making certain party memebers innefective. If you couldn't manage too give appropriate challenges befor under the old DR somehow I don't think this will change because there's a new DR out there, so your fights will remain as unheroic as before, except with the added bonus of frustrating all the fighters who didn't go two hander style. And not because the fight wasn't easy for them, but because they were inefective and lame even after using there creative tactics.

 

[BryonD]

Hey Shard,

Pretty impressive. You swept away all the examples given against you by doing nothing more that re-re-stating your position without offering any evidence.

Cool.