[3.5E] In The Works - Changes to the Titan

[Elder-Basilisk]

I'm quite aware of your character (as I am of mine--under the current rules, my fighter/wizard/spellsword is able to get AC 45 or so without help from anyone else (more typically 36-38 and potentially 50 with help from a cleric) but there are two things I'm assuming here: 3.5e rules (so no appreciable bonus from shield or Haste) and an ordinary fighter type who wants to actually fight the Titan in melee.

Now, I could add in dwarven defender or devoted defender bonusses to the AC but that wouldn't actually simulate a normal fighter. Similarly, I could add in expertise but that will make it very difficult for the fighter to actually hit the Titan. And if I add fighting defensively on top of that, it ensures that the fighter won't hit the titan (although the Titan will need to roll fairly well to hit the fighter by that point. I could make the fighter a halfling for the size bonus too or give him a Beneficial Polymorph to some creature with more than +5 natural armor but all of those detract from the analysis of a typical fighter.

I guess that a defensively oriented human fighter could go as high as AC 51 (+5 mithral fullplate, +5 amulet natural armor, +5 ring protection, +5 large shield, +3 dex, +1 dodge, +1 two weapon defense, +5 expertise, +1 haste) and still hope to hit the Titan but even AC 51 isn't very hard for the Titan to hit. If the fighter has 5 ranks of Tumble and fights defensivly, he can get up to 54, but the Titan will still hit on a 17 and the fighter won't be hitting much himself. If I were to add in prestige classes and combinations, it might be possible for the fighter to be pretty much unhittable. However, that doesn't prove any more than the fact that a 3e Sun elf Greater Spell Focussed Red Wizard/Archmage with +6 spellpower and spellcasting prodigy can get well-nigh unbeatable spell DCs. Such a character would be so far removed from typical that balancing challenges to him would be like balancing monsters to the Sun Efl.

Trust me, it doesn't stop anywhere close to there.

I've got an 11th level fighter who can achieve an AC of 46+, and all his equipment is only +1 or +2.

Granted, it will be much harder to achive this in 3.5, as two of the biggest AC boosts are diminished (Haste and Shield spells), but there are several AC enhancing options that you aren't considering.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

A wizard with an Int of 34 (not too hard to do)

Really? Is that "not too hard to do... assuming you start with an 18 or 20 int"? If that's the case, you should revise your assumptions. Most D&D characters don't start off with an effective 18 and don't have the option to start off as a +2 int race.

If you don't assume an 18 int, you're left with +5 level increases, +6 stat increases, and a minimum of 4 successive wishes or a +4 tome. And that's starting with a 17. I wouldn't call that easy.

, GSF, and some PrC that grants +2 spell power (those are going to be in the revised DMG, ya know)

Since when are creatures balanced on the assumption that a character will have any prestige class at all--let alone one that grants spell power? Are single classed wizards supposed to be viable characters? If so, let's leave Spellpower at the door. If not, let's stop pretending.

can throw a dominate monster with a DC of 35. That's a (.65 x .65 =) 42% chance of ending the combat with a single spell.

You need Greater Spell Penetration as well in order to have that 42% chance of yours.

Two less optimal save-or-die Will spells (with, say, DC 30 or so) yield a 45% chance of ending the combat. (A wizard who throws Fort-save spells at anything like a titan deserves what he gets, BTW.)

Which are the "save or die" will save spells again? The only ones I know of are Wierd, and Phantasmal Killer and they both give fort saves as well. The failed will saves you're talking about (even Dominate Monster) are not properly save or die; they're save or consequences. The Titan stands a very good chance of living to fight another day.

In any case, you're talking 3 rounds of 8th or 9th level will save spells for an ordinary wizard before there's even a 50/50 chance that he's ended the combat (although not necessarily killed the Titan).

 

[Stalker0]

Exactly when did Mialee gain the ability to cast Personal only spells on other people?

Pretty neat trick, that.

Hehe, I knew as soon as I posted that story someone would find a mistake

Caliban, your on my list!!

 

[Stalker0]

Did Ember get hasted somewhere along the way? Move action, pick up object, use spell-like ability - that's too many actions for one round. (I'll grant her the smile as a free action, though. )

Nowhere in dimension door does it say you have to be holding the object, just touching it, and plenty of clerics will cast a touch spell, run over and put it on the enemy.

 

[Destil]

I'm leaning towards the exact oppisite end of the spectrum for old vs. new DR, Shard... The old system simply wasn't there. If you ever run into it, you just run away, no DM gave his party something that they couldn't beat the DR at most levels and expceted them to beat it (exception: low HP low CR monsters like gricks).

In the old way certain DRs were impossible to beat with the current group, it was assumed that they would only put into use as some form of motivation to get the palyes to run or circumvent the monster outside of just hitting it. But the vast majority of the time thes emosnters just wouldn't be used until the right + was in the group, or GMW was a commonly memorized spell.

This sounds a lot like meta-game thinking to me... in fact 'meta-game' is a silly to throw around in this instance, because that ultmately comes down to how the DM describes the ability. As I understand it by your logic casting dispel magic on someone who has a bunch of magical spells up is also meta gaming, as would be using power attack or expertiese vs. something with low AC. A certina degree of metagaming always takes place, because it displays internal consistany. Meta-game, as a negitive term, usualy means more something like assuming that when you run into DR the DM dosn't want you to win and you run, (use out of game logic to determin in game actions) rather than you run into DR and try and find a way to get in powerful single hits (which is internally consistant with the game's system, and thus purly in-game logic).

Having fun and playing the game

... sounds like bascily using little to no tacticts and simply attacking anything until it's dead. I'm not one to argue about 'fun' (if you enjoy the old system more then use it by all means), but I still find the new system far more evoicitive and interesting, which for me means more 'fun'. It may not fit into your ideal of heroic gameplay, but how about hold person (now you're not doing any damage, that's heroic)?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Shard

simple it helped heroic combat by actually alowing you to fight the battles.

Heroic combat isn't supposed to be easy.

Grog

But what about dual wielders and/or finesse fighters? DR is going to shut them down cold, even at relatively small amounts.

Drizzt gets nerfed? GOOD!

Coyote6

I don't like assuming that all 20th level fighters will have +5 plate; for one thing, that's boring.

WotC assumes that each 20th-level character will also have a +6 stat-boosting item. If your characters are sub-optimal, they aren't playing the game they're designed to play.

For another, out of my group, no one has yet played a full plate wearing character; having the game setup to require them to do so is, well, boring.

You can get a higher AC with a chain shirt or breastplate, without begging the elves for mithral

ByronD

Sunder: I think the problem with sunder is not that it is "no fun". I think it is just to easy to do.

I can only hope this gets changed as well.

As an aside, this is one thing I kinda dislike about the current WotC D20 model.

The numbers always work out the same.

I find it preferable to "only needing to roll a 1"

Elder

If the fighter has 5 ranks of Tumble and fights defensivly, he can get up to 54, but the Titan will still hit on a 17 and the fighter won't be hitting much himself.

If you can reduce the titan to hitting you 15% of the time, then it's not a CR 21 encounter. Besides, it doesn't care about your AC. If wants to break your weapon first.

Really? Is that "not too hard to do... assuming you start with an 18 or 20 int"? If that's the case, you should revise your assumptions. Most D&D characters don't start off with an effective 18 and don't have the option to start off as a +2 int race.

If you don't assume an 18 int, you're left with +5 level increases, +6 stat increases, and a minimum of 4 successive wishes or a +4 tome. And that's starting with a 17. I wouldn't call that easy.

Exactly. Starting characters should have a 15. I don't get this obsession with wizards having to start with a high Int anyway.

Which are the "save or die" will save spells again?

Hold Monster has been called "save or die" for years. It's just semantics.

In any case, you're talking 3 rounds of 8th or 9th level will save spells for an ordinary wizard before there's even a 50/50 chance that he's ended the combat (although not necessarily killed the Titan).

A 20th-level wizard is looking at 8 spells of 8th or 9th level. (Probably more, with higher Intelligence and maybe pearls, but that's another story.) A titan is CR 21, so it should take up half of the party's resources. Yet a wizard can single-handedly take out a titan, using only half of his resources, rather than half of the party's resources. The titan actually looks weak

I'm half-kidding. I don't know any wizards who prepare only Dominate Monster for their 9th-level spells

Don't get me wrong - I want the powerful spell-casting monsters to have some potent spells. But it's also good for monsters that are likely to see use in a non-combat, role-playing encounter (and I definitely would put the titan in that group) to have other interesting abilities.

Writing up a different spell list for titans was really annoying. Sometimes the spell-like abilities granted to a monster were useful for role-playing, but too often they were like summon nature's ally II - they didn't need to be there.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Hold Monster has been called "save or die" for years. It's just semantics.

It drives me crazy to hear statements like this.

This is only true for unprepared DM's. This is what bothers me about WotC's changes, it caters, just like so many things in the modern day, to DM's who want alot of no brainer heroic combats. Is that possible?

I'm not saying there aren't bad spells out there, but the hold spells were not amongst them. I will never understand the reason for this change.

I look at D&D combat like a chess match. The Dm is playing white, and always has the advantage. The players are playing black trying to defeat encounter the DM has put them in. If the DM does not have a counter ready for simple spells like Hold Monster, then can we really say he was planning for a heroic combat?

There are multiple ways to deal with hold spells and many creatures immune to them. Remove Paralysis, Freedom of Movement, Dispel Magic, SR, items to boost saving throws, items that duplicate the effects of magic items, and using monsters that are immune to hold spells.

As a DM, I feel that people should have to take these factors into account when designing adventures, just as if the main enemy were taking these factors into account. It makes people have to think about the encounters they plan and for which the players prepare.

I would love for Andy Collins or Monte Cook to answer why the DM and the players should not have to take death and hold spells as well as the spells to counter their effects into account when designing adventures? They both have had an impact on designing the game and both have alot of experience running the game, and should realize that their are counters for each and every one of the spells they seem to be classifying as "no fun."

There are so many frickin ways to deal with death and hold spells it isn't even funny. I have been running the game for years, and sometimes simply sending a crushing attack down upon the players will seriously deplete their spell power as the party tries to keep up with healing. Creatures like dragons and other stuff should be mobile and dangerous, and if the party gets lucky enough to land a death or hold spell, let'em have the victory. I bet they had to deal with alot of pain to make it happen.

I just don't and never will get it. I have played alot of games over the years, and never had a problem challenging my players. I don't think I would have a problem challenging anyones players.

 

[Dthamilaye]

... and an ordinary fighter type who wants to actually fight the Titan in melee...

An ordinary fighter type is not supposed to fight the titan in melee alone. At least if the fighter is around 20th-21st level.

Titan, as CR 21, is supposed to be tackled with 4 (four) characters of level 21. If the fighter gets beaten the crums out of him, it is supposed to be like that. He still has the cleric, wizard and somebody else there to buff him, heal him, keep him in fight, give him edge against the Titan.

You don't put one lone fighter against a troll, if their level and CR match. Or any other such instance.

Stat/AC/hit plus items are not the only way to fight. AC is not the only way to prevent hits.
Give the fighter blink and displacement. Whee, only 1/4 of the Titan attacks really connect the fighter.

I don't get these 'a 20th fighter would have a hard time against that monster' when the 20th fighter is not even supposed to have a chance to beat him anyways.
If you really want to compare one lonely fighter and Titan in a duel, make the fighter 30th level or something.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Celtavian

quote:
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Hold Monster has been called "save or die" for years. It's just semantics.
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It drives me crazy to hear statements like this.

This is only true for unprepared DM's.

And more blah blah blah. Did you even read the quotes, or did you just feel like ranting?

Ruleslawyer
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Two less optimal save-or-die Will spells (with, say, DC 30 or so) yield a 45% chance of ending the combat. (A wizard who throws Fort-save spells at anything like a titan deserves what he gets, BTW.)
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Elder Basilisk
Which are the "save or die" will save spells again? The only ones I know of are Wierd, and Phantasmal Killer and they both give fort saves as well. The failed will saves you're talking about (even Dominate Monster) are not properly save or die; they're save or consequences. The Titan stands a very good chance of living to fight another day.

You can rant at Ruleslawyer, for starters, since he called the Will save spells save-or-die. Furthermore, he's not the only person to do that, as I pointed out.

If the DM does not have a counter ready for simple spells like Hold Monster, then can we really say he was planning for a heroic combat?

I guess every single "random encounter" must be meticulously planned, then? In order to make sure every creature has all these wonderful immunities, the DM has to heavily metagame and suspend disbelief. Use only storm giants, all the time? Or if you want to use a brute ... "Really, that barely intelligent creature got it's paws on a ring of freedom of movement?"

There are multiple ways to deal with hold spells and many creatures immune to them. Remove Paralysis, Freedom of Movement, Dispel Magic, SR, items to boost saving throws, items that duplicate the effects of magic items, and using monsters that are immune to hold spells.

Did you notice that immunity to hold spells is rare? Just a few creature types (some, such as plants, are very rare) and the storm giant. There's a few more, but they're rare.

Did you notice that monsters tend to have less treasure than classed characters?

I have been running the game for years, and sometimes simply sending a crushing attack down upon the players will seriously deplete their spell power as the party tries to keep up with healing.

Unless the players use those save-or-"die" spells they won't be depleting those spells.

I have played alot of games over the years, and never had a problem challenging my players.

Lots and lots of DMs have had trouble challenging their high-level players, even when they advance creatures and boost their stats and give them class levels so they have more gear (and more hp, better saves, more potent attacks, etc) and still have trouble. It sound slike you just wanted to insult the vast majority of "lesser" DMs.

It didn't help that high level got a lot less playtesting than low-level, which explains why wusses like the marilith got into the original Monster Manual.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

BTW, that Titan is a killer. You could easily destroy a whole party with his combined abilities. The fighter probably wouldn't even get close to that Titan, he or she would probably be in a perpetual maze while Harry the Titan proceeded to crush the rest of the party.

If the Titan is in a module, he is probably not going to be alone. He could be, but probably won't be, at least not for long. I wouldn't be suprised if a 21st level party was obliterated by a Titan.