[3.5E] In The Works - Changes to the Titan

[BryonD]

Grappling is an option, but many monsters are bigger and stronger than any PC fighter could ever hope to be. And as for fighting defensively, that won't work against an intelligent opponent. If a fighter is just standing there on full defense, why would an intelligent monster continue attacking him? He'd just ignore the fighter and go after the wizard, or the cleric, or whoever was actually a threat to him.

You are right.

But you also missed the point.

There are PLENTY of cases where either of these options WOULD work. There are also many manyn other options (as I stated).

I think that phrases like "just standing there" and "actually a threat" (indicating that the fighter is not a threat at all) demonstrate a sadly narrow point of view. They monstrously misrepresent the rules. And if your examples are that far from the reality of the system, then your examples are not worth much.

 

[Grog]

I think it is silly to complain about this now - chances are that the DR values scale with CR, so low CR monsters will have 5/whatever damage, so a dual wielder shouldn't have a lot of trouble getting through at those levels, then in the mid-levels it will be 10/whatever, etc. I think if a dual-wielder can't get through 15 points of DR at level 18+ then there is something seriously non-standard about the campaign or the character - and nobody says you can't make changes to things as appropriate to your game.

Oh, I'm sure an 18th level dual-wielder could get through 15 points of DR. But the real question is, can he get through the DR and still do enough damage to have an impact on the enemy?

Say this fighter has STR 30, two +5 shortswords, and weapon spec in shortsword. That gives him 1d6+17 damage with his primary attacks, and 1d6+12 with his secondary attacks.

Half the time, his secondary attacks will do no damage at all, even if they hit. His primary attack will always do damage, but it will be 3-8 points per hit. Giving him average damage, his four primary attacks will do 5.5 damage each, and his three secondary attacks will do .5 damage each, giving him a total of 23.5 damage. Against a CR 18 monster with 250+ hit points, that's a minor annoyance, at best.

Give this same fighter a +5 greatsword, he does 2d6+22 damage per hit. His four attacks will do 14 damage per hit on average, or 56 damage total. Still not great, but more than twice as good as the dual-wielder, and probably enough to make a difference in the fight. Also, don't forget the dual-wielder has a -2 penalty to hit.

The one advantage the dual-wielder has is that he can have damaging enchantments on both of his swords, which could potentially level the playing field somewhat. But the dual-wielder has to pay for that advantage in spades by having two weapons enchanted. Two +8 weapons will be well over half the suggested treasure amount for an 18th level character. Also, high-power enemies with DR are probably going to have elemental resistances too. Overall, things don't look very good for dual-wielders.

 

[BryonD]

Sunder: I think the problem with sunder is not that it is "no fun". I think it is just to easy to do.

Knowing that your weapon is indestructable because sunder isn't being used would be no fun.

However, knowing that your weapon can be destroyed at almost any second because the current sunder rules are so simple can be just as little fun.

(Now, knowing that your weapon can't be broken because you have the indestructable weapon ability from the awesome Beyond Monks by Chainmail Bikini Games, available now from RPGnow and in your FLGS in July is a different matter entirely. And the fact that I played a small role in helping James Garr write this book has nothing in the world to do with this opinion. )

 

[Grog]

So fighting defensively isn't just standing around.

Right, I know. But monster ACs are getting a big boost in 3.5 too, so losing a lot of points off your attack bonus is probably going to make most of your attacks whiff. But really, if the fighter has to go on the defensive, it probably means his attacks weren't doing much in the first place, so why should an intelligent monster waste any time with him? It'd go after the ones who were capable of doing the most damage to it.

 

[BryonD]

A dual wielder is going to be less effective against high DR.

A 2hander is going to be less effective against large numbers of low toughness guys because a lot of his damage will become blow-through, while the dual wielder will spread his damage out over more attacks, hitting more of the soft targets.

It isn't a bug, its a feature.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

Well, my modified version of "Bastion of Broken Souls" just got a helluva lot more interesting!

Seriously, I like this version of the Titan all the way around (even the Sundering ability). Loosing that cumbersome spell list is a big improvement, IMO, as is the availability of SLA's based off of alignement. Good touch, that.

I'll suspend final judgement until I after unleash the improved version in my FR campaign a few months from now.

FWIW, I hope the MM3.5 continues this "empowerment" trend accross the board.

 

[Grog]

You are right.

But you also missed the point.

There are PLENTY of cases where either of these options WOULD work. There are also many manyn other options (as I stated).

I think that phrases like "just standing there" and "actually a threat" (indicating that the fighter is not a threat at all) demonstrate a sadly narrow point of view. They monstrously misrepresent the rules. And if your examples are that far from the reality of the system, then your examples are not worth much.

Sure, there are a lot of options, but most of them require opposed rolls that the PCs have a very slim chance of making against higher level foes. High CR monsters are almost all at least Large, many are Huge, and a few are even Gargantuan or Colossal. Many of them also have Strength scores far beyond anything most PCs can ever hope to attain. This rules out grappling, tripping, bull rushing, etc. Disarm/sunder is an option, but only if the creature is using a weapon. Aid another really offers very little benefit. And if you fight defensively, an intelligent opponent will just ignore you and focus on your friends instead.

So yes, there are lots of options, but darned few effective ones.

 

[ruleslawyer]

The problem is, the goal is not just to "get through" DR. DR isn't like SR, which is all or nothing - if you get through the SR, your spell has full effect, and if not, it has no effect. DR isn't like that - it's possible to get through DR and yet have your attack still have almost no effect on the enemy.

OK, this just isn't correct; in fact, quite the opposite. It's SR that's the all-or-nothing protection, not DR.

Moreover, even if a spellcaster bypasses SR, there's still the target's saving throw, elemental resistances, resistances to specific spell types (mind-affecting, death, etc.), and evasion (if applicable) to deal with.

DR doesn't have this problem. If you hit, and you can bypass DR, great. You deal damage! If you deal a good amount of damage, even if you don't bypass DR, great. You deal damage!

I really don't see the problem here, but YMMV.

 

[Grog]

A dual wielder is going to be less effective against high DR.

A 2hander is going to be less effective against large numbers of low toughness guys because a lot of his damage will become blow-through, while the dual wielder will spread his damage out over more attacks, hitting more of the soft targets.

That's what Cleave/Great Cleave is for.

And really, how many enemies will PCs realistically be facing at mid-high levels that they can take out in a single hit?

 

[Junkheap]

Sorry, ByronD clarified it for me. Sunder was too easy, thats what made it no fun. It was ok to break weapons, but when a larger creature usually has an easy chance to break your weapons, it gets to be no fun too quick. We thought that way about disarm too, but then quickly came to realize that at least in monster or npc vs pc, disarming is pretty even in that you can still pick up your weapon and use it. With sunder, a monster don't give a crap if he looses his weapon.

Either way, i really like what i have seen to 3.5 so far. It is bringing me and my group back to playing again. High level adventures were just notorious for killing fun. It was like playing russian roulette with who dies next. Again, my experiences.