[3.5E] In The Works - Changes to the Titan

[Grog]

OK, this just isn't correct; in fact, quite the opposite. It's SR that's the all-or-nothing protection, not DR.

That's exactly what I said.

 

[BryonD]

Right, I know. But monster ACs are getting a big boost in 3.5 too, so losing a lot of points off your attack bonus is probably going to make most of your attacks whiff. But really, if the fighter has to go on the defensive, it probably means his attacks weren't doing much in the first place, so why should an intelligent monster waste any time with him? It'd go after the ones who were capable of doing the most damage to it.

No, the whole point of going on the defesive was NOT that he was whiffing. It was that he was hitting but just was not doing AS much damage due to DR. So now he hits a little less (NOT misses most the time, just hits a little less). But he also gets hit less, so he can last longer and distract the monster (because he IS a threat).

And like I said before, if you get into a case where you really aren't doing much damage (which is a red herring because, for the umptenth time, DRs are LOWER now) then you go to alternates like trip, sunder, grapple, aid-another, draw fire, etc...

Why should an intelligent wizard and a (at least marginally) intelligent fighter not conspire to keep the fighter between the wizx and the monster. Nobody says they must succeed every time. But it is just as silly to presume they will fail.

 

[IanB]

Oh, I'm sure an 18th level dual-wielder could get through 15 points of DR. But the real question is, can he get through the DR and still do enough damage to have an impact on the enemy?

Say this fighter has STR 30, two +5 shortswords, and weapon spec in shortsword. That gives him 1d6+17 damage with his primary attacks, and 1d6+12 with his secondary attacks.

Half the time, his secondary attacks will do no damage at all, even if they hit. His primary attack will always do damage, but it will be 3-8 points per hit. Giving him average damage, his four primary attacks will do 5.5 damage each, and his three secondary attacks will do .5 damage each, giving him a total of 23.5 damage. Against a CR 18 monster with 250+ hit points, that's a minor annoyance, at best.

Give this same fighter a +5 greatsword, he does 2d6+22 damage per hit. His four attacks will do 14 damage per hit on average, or 56 damage total. Still not great, but more than twice as good as the dual-wielder, and probably enough to make a difference in the fight. Also, don't forget the dual-wielder has a -2 penalty to hit.

The one advantage the dual-wielder has is that he can have damaging enchantments on both of his swords, which could potentially level the playing field somewhat. But the dual-wielder has to pay for that advantage in spades by having two weapons enchanted. Two +8 weapons will be well over half the suggested treasure amount for an 18th level character. Also, high-power enemies with DR are probably going to have elemental resistances too. Overall, things don't look very good for dual-wielders.

First of all, you're neglecting criticals in the discussion, which in my experience with high level play happen quite frequently, what with improved critical and keen edge being available - and a dual wielder with multiple attacks with each hand (if you're going to go DW, you're likely going to invest in improved and greater two-weapon fighting) has many more opportunities for critical hits than his greatsword using companion, and a critical with the lower damage off-hand weapon will still be a nice chunk after the DR is applied.

Let's also remember, for our specialized dual-wielding friend, that 3.5 has a greater weapon specialization feat which will apply to both of those attacks if taken.

We're up to 7 feats spent on it, which doesn't seem unusual for a fighter who really wants to be a badass dual shortsword user. That still leaves plenty of other feats for a fighter to use on other things.

Greater Magic Weapon is still floating around out there so there is another option - a +1 keen flaming shortsword isn't terribly expensive.

What if our poor dual wielding friend is a rogue? Sneak attacks for d6+5+9d6 will still have plenty of oomph left after the DR is applied. A rapier of puncturing would be handy too.

I think there are a lot of ways around the problems posed by DR for players, and I still prefer it to the essentially meaningless old DR rules.

Hell, the align weapon spell may go a long way to making this argument really pointless.

 

[BryonD]

Sure, there are a lot of options, but most of them require opposed rolls that the PCs have a very slim chance of making against higher level foes. High CR monsters are almost all at least Large, many are Huge, and a few are even Gargantuan or Colossal. Many of them also have Strength scores far beyond anything most PCs can ever hope to attain. This rules out grappling, tripping, bull rushing, etc. Disarm/sunder is an option, but only if the creature is using a weapon. Aid another really offers very little benefit. And if you fight defensively, an intelligent opponent will just ignore you and focus on your friends instead.

So yes, there are lots of options, but darned few effective ones.

And High level characters have all kinds of magic items and abilities to even the scales.

And I really do not follow how it is just that easy for a monster to ignore the fighter who is staying in his face and swinging at him 3 or 4 times a round.

You keep assuming that the monster will just wipe the florr with the fighter. If so, that is poor DMing.

I would not give a fighter21 very good odds against this Titan. But he is going to be noticed.

 

[Grog]

No, the whole point of going on the defesive was NOT that he was whiffing.

I never said he was. I said that losing a lot of points off his attack bonus (by devoting them to defense via Expertise) will probably make him whiff quite a bit.

It was that he was hitting but just was not doing AS much damage due to DR. So now he hits a little less (NOT misses most the time, just hits a little less). But he also gets hit less, so he can last longer and distract the monster (because he IS a threat).

He may be a threat, but if he's missing a lot, and doing reduced damage when he does connect, he probably won't be as much of a threat as other members of the party (unless the critter has SR that shuts the spellcasters down totally).

Why should an intelligent wizard and a (at least marginally) intelligent fighter not conspire to keep the fighter between the wizx and the monster. Nobody says they must succeed every time. But it is just as silly to presume they will fail.

Oh, I agree that sometimes the fighter will be able to block a monster from reaching the wizard (in fact, the new monster face rules will probably make this quite a bit easier). But I don't want to see fighters reduced to playing meat shields whenever they run up against DR they don't happen to have the weapon for.

 

[Grog]

And High level characters have all kinds of magic items and abilities to even the scales.

And I really do not follow how it is just that easy for a monster to ignore the fighter who is staying in his face and swinging at him 3 or 4 times a round.

You keep assuming that the monster will just wipe the florr with the fighter. If so, that is poor DMing.

I would not give a fighter21 very good odds against this Titan. But he is going to be noticed.

If he has a big weapon he's definitely going to be noticed, even if he can't bypass the DR. Heck, the titan's SR is so high, the fighter might be the biggest threat in the group...

 

[IanB]

If he has a big weapon he's definitely going to be noticed, even if he can't bypass the DR. Heck, the titan's SR is so high, the fighter might be the biggest threat in the group...

SR seems to be set in general to make it a 50/50 thing for an un-tuned character of level equal to the critter's CR - so a level 21 caster would get through the titan's SR on an 11.

Spell penetration, greater spell penetration, spell power (now core in the 3.5 DMG - archmage and hierophant) swing the odds to be in the player's favor that way.

Still it is going to be a rough fight, which is I think the point.

 

[BryonD]

I never said he was. I said that losing a lot of points off his attack bonus (by devoting them to defense via Expertise) will probably make him whiff quite a bit.

Fighter 21:

BAB +20
+5 Sword
+6 Str bonus (easily start with STR 18 add +1 at 4 levels)
+2 Greater Weapon Focus

= +33 to hit

-5 for expertise = +28 to hit

Titan AC = 38. Primary attack WITH expertise hits 55%. Hardly whiffing "quite a bit". Give him a belt of giant STR+6 (easy for Fighter21) and you now hit 70%. (and note that this means he only misses on a 1 if he does not use expertise)

Assume just a +5 longsword.

1d8 = 4.5
+5 (sword)
+4 (greater spec)
+6 (or more STR)

So without hits he IS doing damage with every hit. Is he taking the titan down quick? Hell no. But he should not be.

Oh, I agree that sometimes the fighter will be able to block a monster from reaching the wizard (in fact, the new monster face rules will probably make this quite a bit easier). But I don't want to see fighters reduced to playing meat shields whenever they run up against DR they don't happen to have the weapon for.

Well then I have good news. They will not. DR15 is an extreme case. And we aren't even beginning to consider a realistic scenario. Add simple boots of flying and the spring attack feat and the fighter becomes much more of an issue.

Screw Expertise. Grab a 2hander and power attack for 5 points.
70% hit for 1d8+25 - 15 is still nice. 14% crit rate for 2d8+50-15.

You don't think that is noteable?

When you compare a simple f21 to this guy, he can make a showing. You gear him up like he should be and he will be good to go. I still can not see him winning alone. But he is not supposed to. But "meat shield" is way way way from the truth.

(Oh and SR = CR+11 is standard, I don't see any problem there. Wizards have been dealing with 50/50 spells for their whole career)

 

[BryonD]

If he has a big weapon he's definitely going to be noticed, even if he can't bypass the DR. Heck, the titan's SR is so high, the fighter might be the biggest threat in the group...

SR = CR+11.

Exactly where it should be.

 

[BryonD]

As an aside, this is one thing I kinda dislike about the current WotC D20 model.

The numbers always work out the same.