[3.5E] In The Works - Changes to the Titan

[coyote6]

Gezzuz, can we stop the damn whining all the time

That's not gonna happen. If (or when) the people who hate hate hate 3.5e now decide they love it, there will be someone else who's pissed that the new books have errata. Or that they're $30. Or that the miniature game's minis are plastic, or have bad paint jobs, or are randomly packaged. Or someone will be mad that some portion of the Complete Warrior will be reused material from S&F or MotW or whatever. Etc.

Rule #4.7 of the Internet: The Whining Will Not Stop.

PS: you do realize, of course, that you are whining about whining?

PPS: The new titan looks pretty cool -- gigantic adamantine warhammer -- hey, it's good to be older than the gods! Neat spell-like abilities, got rid of that pesky spellcasting that meant titans were high level clerics, with a bunch of extra abilities, for a +1 CR adjustment (whoa).

But, just for Junkheap , I'll pick two nits: apparently, the new weapon size rules aren't flexible enough to allow larger-than-normal weapons without requiring a special ability; he's basically using a two-handed hammer, and I guess there's not one in the PH, so he has to use one sized for a bigger creature than him, and thus needs a Cool Ability (TM) to do it without penalty. Whereas in 3e, they just said he uses a Gargantuan warhammer, and were done. I hope the peeks at those weapon size rules haven't been indicative of their general swellness.

Second, that Sundering tactic. (a) I don't find that fun, as a GM; (b) I have Suspension Issues with it. He's wielding a Gargantuan warhammer -- that's what, eight times bigger than a regular warhammer? From the PH picture, that's freaking huge. So the 25 foot guy with the hammer that's a almost 3 feet across is bending over to break the 3 foot long shortsword? How does he even hit the shortsword without hitting the rogue? And do it reliably enough that it's the first, and fourth thing he does.

 

[Grog]

The DR 10/X do not start at low CRs. Any mid level fighter worth his salt can still be very effective against such a creature. At the simplest level he can just take the -10 and work away. But he can also actaully (heaven forbid) think tactically and grapple, or fight defensively to help the rogue flank or the wizard cast as few more spells. (Or a wide variety of other possibilities)

Grappling is an option, but many monsters are bigger and stronger than any PC fighter could ever hope to be. And as for fighting defensively, that won't work against an intelligent opponent. If a fighter is just standing there on full defense, why would an intelligent monster continue attacking him? He'd just ignore the fighter and go after the wizard, or the cleric, or whoever was actually a threat to him.

 

[War Golem]

As the maul slams upon the ground with a thunderous roar, ember moves. Although she is taking a careful jog, her movement is a blur. She tumbles under the titan's fist, and reaches out for the maul. She smiles upon the titan, and takes the abundant step 800 feet back, the maul coming with her.

Did Ember get hasted somewhere along the way? Move action, pick up object, use spell-like ability - that's too many actions for one round. (I'll grant her the smile as a free action, though. )

 

[Caliban]

Did Ember get hasted somewhere along the way? Move action, pick up object, use spell-like ability - that's too many actions for one round. (I'll grant her the smile as a free action, though. )

Also: Picking something up off the ground provokes an AoO. And the Titan still threatens with his Slam attacks, even without the Maul...

 

[IanB]

The problem is, the goal is not just to "get through" DR. DR isn't like SR, which is all or nothing - if you get through the SR, your spell has full effect, and if not, it has no effect. DR isn't like that - it's possible to get through DR and yet have your attack still have almost no effect on the enemy.

And the problem is worse for certain types of characters. High-strength fighters who use two-handed weapons and do massive amounts of damage per swing may still be able to do significant damage through DR, depending on the amount. But what about dual wielders and/or finesse fighters? DR is going to shut them down cold, even at relatively small amounts. These characters had enough problems already; it just baffles me as to why WotC would want to weaken them further.

And another thing - what about CRs? Will a monster's CR assume that the PCs have the right weapons to bypass its DR or not? This is going to make CRs even less useful for gauging how dangerous an encounter will be.

I think it is silly to complain about this now - chances are that the DR values scale with CR, so low CR monsters will have 5/whatever damage, so a dual wielder shouldn't have a lot of trouble getting through at those levels, then in the mid-levels it will be 10/whatever, etc. I think if a dual-wielder can't get through 15 points of DR at level 18+ then there is something seriously non-standard about the campaign or the character - and nobody says you can't make changes to things as appropriate to your game.

And hey, maybe it will be rough on certain builds trying to get through DR - but if a character is built for finesse I should hope that there are more tactics they can use than a d6+5 rapier attack at level 20, because titans are going to be the least of their worries.

Looking at the high level game I play in now, there are holy, unholy, chaotic, and adamantine weapons available easily to the characters, and I can't imagine that silver will be difficult to come by. So a titan might be a tough challenge as we don't have a monk or anyone with lawful weapons at the moment - but I don't think it is undoable (party is ~level 21.) This is also before playing in a system where the need for non-plussed weapons to bypass DR was an issue, so I would imagine that in games that switch over to 3.5, such things might become more common.

 

[Junkheap]

If you don't have anything to say except "PLEASE SHUT THE HELL UP", why even bother posting? It only makes you look childish and immature.

Makes me look childish and immature? Hahah, thats pretty funny actually. Keep yapping back about the same thing over and over like a little child that doesn't get what he wants, THAT's childish. I don't mind having debates, discussions, but honestly, this is going on in every thread. Give it a break. You won't change ANYTHING. If you don't like it, don't use it. I don't use certain rules, but i am not going out of my way to bring the same point across on multiple threads.

You can call me childish and immature, but i have been here longer, even tho i don't post now as often as i used to. So while this will be my last post on this subject, i guarantee i will see you cry for as long as this thread can go. You stated your point, maybe 4 people agree, move on.

Again, nothing against you. I don't know you, and probably i will agree with you somehere i the future. And i am sorry for being "childish". Rough day.

 

[War Golem]

Just to get back on topic, the new Titan is a brute...and I like it that way. I like the idea of an adventuring party getting the shivers just thinking of taking on something that powerful. I'm also really really really glad they got rid of all the sissy spell like abilities. I hope this is a universal change for powerful monsters. I mean really, why would a 25 foot tall, heavily armored, maul-weilding, superwarrior who has access to the likes of firestorm and chain-lightning, Really want to summon a small forest creature, cure 10 hps a shot, and then unleash the almighty Produce Flame spell?

Maybe because these spells make sense and can be useful for a titan to be able to cast outside of a combat situation?

Don't get me wrong - I want the powerful spell-casting monsters to have some potent spells. But it's also good for monsters that are likely to see use in a non-combat, role-playing encounter (and I definitely would put the titan in that group) to have other interesting abilities.

 

[Junkheap]

coyote6: I know and agree with you. The sundering tactic will be crap, but we have never played with sunder. I never liked it, and neither did my group. To us it ruined the fun, cuz in reality it would only make things harder for the pc's. Now its kinda better in the fact that the damage is overcomeable(is that a word?) and you don't really have to have the right weapon. It will make it harder, a LOT harder, but thats when the best fights occur.

In our previouse experiences, every fighter class took a sure striking weapon. If defeated the need for DR. Plus in reality i think you don't need much more than a +3 for most of the monsters anyway. And if you din't have the +, most likely you wouldn't overcome the damage anway.

 

[coyote6]

Grappling is an option, but many monsters are bigger and stronger than any PC fighter could ever hope to be. And as for fighting defensively, that won't work against an intelligent opponent. If a fighter is just standing there on full defense, why would an intelligent monster continue attacking him? He'd just ignore the fighter and go after the wizard, or the cleric, or whoever was actually a threat to him.

Grappling is a problem -- there are a whole lot of high CR critters that PCs won't be able to grapple. High HD (most have HD > CR, and thus BAB can often be > CR & thus > PC's BAB) + large size (and grapple bonus) + high Str (thanks to large size) == "So, you grab him, but he shrugs you off." Assuming the AoO you draw starting the grapple misses, of course.

However, fighting defensively is not the same as full defense. Fighting defensively lets you attack at -4, gaining a +2 (or higher, with 5 ranks in Tumble and/or certain prestige class abilities). For a smart (Int 13+) fighter, Expertise might be handy; then they can Fight Defensively, at -9 to hit, and +7 to AC. Not much chance of hitting, perhaps, but still some. And you're still threatening, aka setting the rogue up to flank and sneak attack.

Our group also*allows one to use Aid Another defensively, which is +2 to attack or AC for someone else.

So fighting defensively isn't just standing around.

FWIW, I highly recommend fighting defensively when fighting relatively low AC incorporeal foes; the AC bonus is a dodge bonus, so it applies to touch AC, making you harder to hit. And incorporeal foes, lacking armor or natural armor AC bonuses, tend to have lower ACs, so the penalty to attack isn't that severe a problem.

Of course, you have to hope the shadows didn't get a big 3.5e AC boost . . . maybe they're now Dex 22, Cha 22.

*(perhaps generously; I'm not sure of the Official Rules Stance off thetop of my head, but I see Caliban's reading the thread...)

 

[BryonD]

Btw, ByronD, i swear i didn't need to reply, but you always reply to exaclty what i think to a tee. It's feaking scary. Put them in thier place.

Thanks Man. You made my day. I really appreciate it.