D&D 3E/3.5 3.5E - is the warlock underpowered?

[Starbuck_II]

I was making up a group of NPCs to challenge the party and decided for a bit of flavor, that I would change the NPC caster to a warlock from a sorcerer. Both were level 6.

I'll admit magic is more powerful in some ways.

The warlock's eldritch blast at that level does 3d6 damage, only affecting one opponent at a time - and, they still need to make a ranged attack to hit.

Did you apply any blast invocvations? He gets to apply those for free (not similar to metamagic).

A 6th level sorcerer could cast at least 3 fireballs at that level, and most likely four. Each fireball would do 6d6 damage, does not need a "to hit" roll and can affect a whole slew of targets.

And would do zero to a rogue (een he can't evasion Eldriych blast or Summon Swarm).

Then, after the sorcerer casts his 3 or 4 fireballs, he could then cast 5 or 6 scorching rays. Each casting would be two scorching rays and each ray would do 4d6 damage (better than the warlock's eldritch blast) - while the sorcerer's attack bonus (+4 vs +3) is not as good as the warlock's, he does get two shots to the warlock's one.

If the Sorc lives that long... Warlock can climb wall to get outta reach (all day), Sorc must have cast spell in advance (so many minutes) or Fly.

So, unless my big encounter goes well over 14-17 rounds, I would consider the sorcerer way more potent than a warlock.

However, in a campaign where there are several encounters per day, that usefulness can change quite a bit.

But, am I missing something on the warlock otherwise?

Thanks

Warlocks are weaker but have a giood impact:
Look at the invocations:
Lesser:
Fell Flight: Warlock flys all day in casting it and duration (sorcerors' Fly spell isn't that long)
Walk Unseen: invisibility
Wall of Gloom (awesome spell at level 6)
Voracious Dispelling (damage while you dispel)

Least:
Summon Swarm: Standard action (sorcs would be full round), auto damage, causes bleeding, nausea, etc

Eldritch Warding: Ranged attacks have 20% miss (rays, arrows, etc)
Baleful Utterance: Shatter everything


Can apply to Eldritch blast (yes 3d6 + effect):
Sickening blast- sickens
Ftightful blast: Shaken

And then he gets UMD meaning he can have a scroll (multiple) of all the Sorc spells.

 

[Runestar]

Unless you really go out of your way to make warlocks decent (warlock + hellfire warlock + bloodlines + legacy champion) to pump your EB damage, they are fairly weak.

Their ability to effectively never run out of resources is more or less moot when you consider that the rest of the party do not get such a benefit. To keep things fun for the rest of the players, the DM will have to let them rest when their resources are depleted. What use is it if your warlock is still at 100% efficiency, when the cleric is out of healing spells, the fighter is out of hp and the like. Your warlock can go on adventuring alone for all he wants, the rest are going to stop for the day.

Likewise, their pathetic EB damage means that combat gets dragged out longer. In any fight, the faster you off the foes, the fewer turns they get to act, and thus deal that much lesser damage. Who has the patience to wait for the warlock to slowly chip away with his EB, when spellcasters are easily dealing 3-4 times as much damage, to multiple foes? Or even better, locking down the entire battlefield with their signature battlefield control spells?

Then, complete mage came out with reserve feats, which allow casters to have a weak ranged attack, which is not necessarily inferior to what a warlock can muster.

Apart from a very narrow range (between lv6-8/9?) when warlocks can possess effectively undispellable flight 24/7 (since during that time, persistent flight is still worth something) and snipe with impunity, and are thus actually worth playing, I feel that they are just too week prior to lv6 and after lv9.

 

[SolitonMan]

I have to agree with Starbuck and That One Guy, you can't underestimate the usefulness of Deceive Item and a maxed out UMD skill. Also, the power of the warlock will vary considerably depending on the context of the encounter. In a tactical situation, a 6th level warlock should have Fell Flight and Eldritch Spear and attack in a large open area in which the party will have no cover. Add in Entropic Warding to aid in ranged protection and maybe a wand of fireballs for early group damage, then pick off spellcasters then ranged warriors and finally the dregs. In a longer, more RP-based encounter, Beguiling Influence and Charm can be used to make members of the party temporary puppets, and the tactical action can result from being wanted by the law for crimes they've committed, maybe. Throw in a hat of disguise and it's likely that none of the party will even know exactly who the warlock is by the end of the encounter.

I agree that for raw damage a sorcerer of equivalent level can out-produce a warlock over the short term. But with an intelligent opponent who knows his enemy and has planned the battle to his advantage, I think a warlock could be effective.

 

[Runestar]

In a tactical situation, a 6th level warlock should have Fell Flight and Eldritch Spear and attack in a large open area in which the party will have no cover.

Which is why I said that they are still useful from lv6-9, but more or less lackluster outside of this range.

I suppose that if you allow chameleon, you can go warlock12/chameleon2 (letting you choose a new feat every day, which lets you access any item creation feat in the game), it can still make for a decent item crafter...

 

[Shin Okada]

Which is why I said that they are still useful from lv6-9, but more or less lackluster outside of this range.

I don't think so.

By level 1-3. They are very good archers.

Level 4+. Now they can use any spell trigger items (likely to automatically hit 20 with UMD).

level 10+. By this level Eldritch Chain + Eldritch Essence is becoming really effective attack. Don't underestimate the effectiveness of Beshadowed Blast & Brimstone Blast.

Level 11+. Now you can start to ignore SR with Vitriolic Blast. Or can use Chilling Tentacles, the upgraded version of nasty Evard's Black Tentacles infinite times/day.

Level 12+. Now, Warlocks start to create tons of scrolls. From all the spell lists in the game. Or other items. You know, a CG warlock can create Holy Avenger and can use it by himself! (Though he needs martial weapon proficiency. But it can be covered by, say, using a scroll of Tensor's Transformation).

Level 16+. Now now. Some of the Dark Invocations are REALLY nasty. Chained Utterdark Blast is so nasty. Binding Blast (Dragon Magic) may let a Warlock play one-side game.

And, don't underestimate the power of Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Eldritch Blast) and Empower Spell-Like Ability (Eldritch Blast) in one-shot encounter. Warlock BBEG is nasty enough.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Level 12+. Now, Warlocks start to create tons of scrolls. From all the spell lists in the game. Or other items. You know, a CG warlock can create Holy Avenger and can use it by himself! (Though he needs martial weapon proficiency. But it can be covered by, say, using a scroll of Tensor's Transformation).

Dude a scroll of Tensar's is wasteful:
Use the 1st level spell Master's touch (grants proficiency with 1 weapon touched) lasts a couple minutes too.

And, don't underestimate the power of Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Eldritch Blast) and Empower Spell-Like Ability (Eldritch Blast) in one-shot encounter. Warlock BBEG is nasty enough.

True, but you have to plan your character very careful: kinda like a Fighter.

 

[Dorias]

No sir

You guys must be doing something wrong cause i play a warlock primarily and he is by no means underpowered. In fact im usually the one in my party to dish out the most damage. You just have to be clever about how you play them.

 

[Ahnehnois]

There is a great difference in terms of what campaign is being run; fewer encounters always favors casters over warlocks (and over fighters and rogues). Likewise, their durability is a significant advantage over mages, but how much this matters depends on whether the enemies ever attack and hit the casters.

That said, warlocks can do some great things. Invisibility at will, flight at will, these are powerful. They are better at UMD than anyone, which can have its perks. They have DR, which combined with the Fey Heritage tree can really add up.

Many good ideas have already been put forth above but I'll note the Darkness/Devil Sight combo, and Hammer Blast, which lets you do full damage to objects (which at high levels is really nice).

 

[Herzog]

I think there is some agreement the Warlock is under-powered when considering single encounters. In other words, when using a Warlock as an NPC in an encounter, they should be considered less a challenge than a sorcerer of the same level.

How, then, should their CR be calculated? as an NPC class? or even less?

I'm asking because I plan to use low-level Warlocks as NPC's in several encounters ranging from lvl 1 to (probably) level 5, in a campaign leading up to demon (or devil, not sure yet) involvement.

Warlock culties seemed like the appropriate flavor, but this thread made me realise I might be under-challenging the PC's.

So, what would make up a challenging encounter for a first level party, if the opponents are all warlocks?

 

[neth123]

We have a warlock in our current running campaign, and underpowered is the absolute last word our DM would use to describe him. With deceive item/UMD and a few wands like dispel magic and cure mod, he smokes the other characters in the party in raw ability. The character started out as a rogue then moved into warlock. He coupled up leaps and bounds and that skill trick that lets you make an opponent flatfooted to you, and he puts out big numbers with empowered blasts and his sneak attack damage.

not to mention between flying, or crawling on the walls he rarely takes any damage. and with that dimensional hop that leaves a major image behind for a round, he ends up getting the enemies to waste a LOT of actions goose chasing him around.