3 PCs (Party Level 6) "breeze" through EL 9 encounter

[dreaded_beast]

Thanks everyone.

One of the problems I encountered was that the PCs had pretty good ACs, around 21 to 24, while the Rogues attack bonuses were only +4. Even while flanking, the rogues only had a +6 to hit, so they had to roll at least 15 or higher to hit.

Once they flanked, they only had probably 1 round or 2 to try and hit, because of their low HPs and low AC, they were chopped up pretty quick by the PCs.

The assassins spent the first 3 rounds of the fight hidden and observing the PCs, waiting to use their death attack. Before attacking, they used true strike on themselves and then attack. They did some decent damage with their attack, plus their sneak attack. However, once that was over, they were in trouble from the PCs. I used the stats for a typical Fire Knive assassin from the FRCS.

Basically, the assassins were relatively easy for the PCs to hit, AC 19 with alot of the PCs having a +10 to hit or so. The assassins had a harder time to hit the PCs, since their chance to hit was +6 or +8. Plus, the PCs would gang-up on one assassins. Even though the assassins flanked a target, they were brought down in a matter of rounds.

In addition, the room they were fighting in was fairly small, 20' x 35', and it got pretty crowded. I think I also might have been getting eager to finish up the whole assassin adventure and probably made it easier than it should have been. Or maybe I didn't plan my tactics well enough before the session started. Oh well.

Thanks for the input everyone.

 

[Conaill]

If you were to design a 9th level PC assassin, meant to take out an elite team of adventurers, what equipment would you give him?

Now, what equipment did *these* assassins have? Obviously, some means to achieve invisibility would be highly prized by any assassin. Their Obscuring Mist spell could at least have evened the playing field a little (although it would also have negated sneak attacks, if you go strictly by the rules).

And either way, the assassins should *not* just have stood their ground against a melee opponent! Presumably, this lair of theirs involved some corridors, perhaps some secret passages, murder holes, etc? The only time an assasin should get into melee combat is when he's approaching someone from the back...

 

[VirgilCaine]

I DM a FR game consisting of the following:

The "big battle" for last session was when the PCs found the lair of the Fire Knive Assassins that had been hounding for the past couple of days. The lair consisted of 3 2nd Level Rogues and 2 Assassins (1 Ftr/6 Rog/2 Asn). Arcady's EL Calculator gave this encounter an EL of 9.7.

Did I play the encounter incorrectly, are assassins meant to be "one-hit-wonders", or are the PCs just good at melee considering they are mainly fighter types?

Thoughts?

Gee, the Assassins weren't flying/levitating and invisible, and the Rogues weren't using Stoneskin to stand up to the heavy hitting guys? Or using wands of glitterdust or some other mind affecting spell?

So, no you probably played the encounter all wrong if the rogues and assassins weren't well protected magically, with multiple spells to split up and keep the PCs from closing to melee.

Were all these guys buffed well? Blur, dispalcement, blink, mage armor, etc.?

I would have had all of the invisible and levitating, with the Assassins using poisoned heavy crossbows with magical bolts, and the Rogues using UMD on wands and scrolls to throw out Glitterdust--then sneak attacking with poisoned versions of your favorite thrown weapon.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Thanks everyone.

One of the problems I encountered was that the PCs had pretty good ACs, around 21 to 24, while the Rogues attack bonuses were only +4. Even while flanking, the rogues only had a +6 to hit, so they had to roll at least 15 or higher to hit.

Why did the rogues have such terrible attack rolls? Didn't you give them Weapon Finesse? Every rogue with a Dex score higher than their Strength score should have that feat. It's practically a class feature - but it isn't, because there's always a few atypical rogues.

Once they flanked, they only had probably 1 round or 2 to try and hit, because of their low HPs and low AC, they were chopped up pretty quick by the PCs.

A number of problems you ran into:

You used virtually the same type of NPCs for the villains. The assassins should have been divided up, with some fighter/rogues, mages, and so forth to target individual party member weaknesses.

Thieves' Guilds would have fighters, wizards and evil clerics among their number.

NPCs suck for their CR. Really. So much DnD character power is invested in equipment that it starts to resemble Diablo. NPCs have less gear than PCs past 4th-level or so, and the disparity begins to grow.

PS 2 2nd-level rogues (they can't even take Weapon Finesse!) are simply not a match for 6th-level characters. Their only role is to take hits for the "big guys" and you only had two of those.

The assassins spent the first 3 rounds of the fight hidden and observing the PCs, waiting to use their death attack. Before attacking, they used true strike on themselves and then attack. They did some decent damage with their attack, plus their sneak attack. However, once that was over, they were in trouble from the PCs. I used the stats for a typical Fire Knive assassin from the FRCS.

I don't know if that tactic works... True Strike can only be "held" for 2 rounds, max, and I'm pretty sure you can't cast a spell while studying your opponent. But never mind, the assassins still lost.

PS are those Fire Knives stats useful? Did they have Weapon Finesse? I'm not sure. Haven't seen them in a long time.

 

[dreaded_beast]

Well, in regards to picking feats and skills, etc., I don't want to min-max my NPCs too much. I figured these rogues were the "stereotypical" pickpockets and thieves, hence their feats were Stealthy and Run.

For the assassins casting true strike, after 3 rounds of observation, the following round they cast true stike, then the next round they entered melee and attacked. As far as my understanding of the rules, that is legal.

The stats for the Fire Knives seemed all right. According to the FRCS, the stats presented were those of the typical Fire Knive assassin.

I realize the need to sometimes tailor encounters according to the PCs abilities, but I'm not really into customizing NPCs to specifically counteract the abilities of the PCs too much. For the most part, I like to think of a theme for the NPC and try and go with that, hence the "pickpocket" rogues, while crappy in combat, fit the theme of being thieves.

thanks for the input though. Food for thought.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

For the most part, I like to think of a theme for the NPC and try and go with that, hence the "pickpocket" rogues, while crappy in combat, fit the theme of being thieves.

Which is fine, except if that's the case, why did the assassins bring them along? Why would they choose to take Jimmy Fingers along on the assassination mission, instead of instead of Johnny the Knife. If the PCs surprised the NPCs, then sure. But this was a planned encounter by the assassins. Why would they bring along guys specialized in stealth and running, rather than slicing and dicing?

 

[dreaded_beast]

Which is fine, except if that's the case, why did the assassins bring them along? Why would they choose to take Jimmy Fingers along on the assassination mission, instead of instead of Johnny the Knife. If the PCs surprised the NPCs, then sure. But this was a planned encounter by the assassins. Why would they bring along guys specialized in stealth and running, rather than slicing and dicing?

True.

This is how it went down. The Tilverton Rogues, the thieve's guild of Tilverton, told the PCs the location of the hideout for the particular group of Fire Knives hired to kill the PCs. The Tilverton Rogues wanted the PCs to take care of the Fire Knives for them. The rogues advised the PCs to catch the Fire Knives by surprise and hit their hideout, instead of the Fire Knives catching the PCs unawares. The hideout was actually very small and only housed 3 Fire Knives assassins and 6 Rogues.

Basically the hideout was not the "main" hideout, just one of the bases the various Fire Knives cells used. The thieves in the hideout were not really meant for fighting, but for stealing and providing income for the Fire Knives other interests.

Hope this sheds some light on the subject.

 

[molonel]

Well, in regards to picking feats and skills, etc., I don't want to min-max my NPCs too much. I figured these rogues were the "stereotypical" pickpockets and thieves, hence their feats were Stealthy and Run ... I realize the need to sometimes tailor encounters according to the PCs abilities, but I'm not really into customizing NPCs to specifically counteract the abilities of the PCs too much. For the most part, I like to think of a theme for the NPC and try and go with that, hence the "pickpocket" rogues, while crappy in combat, fit the theme of being thieves.

I understand your reasoning. I'm not going to argue with you. I'm just going to give you my perspective.

I always custom-build monsters. The sheer, mind-boggling number of monsters in the MM who spend their feats on things like Toughness, Dodge and Alertness never fails to cheese me off. Intelligent choices and good usage of abilities is not min-maxing. If you are a multi-limbed creature, and you have spent any time defending yourself, then should have multiattack. Creatures with reach should have Combat Reflexes. Anything with a strength and any amount of experience under its belt SHOULD have abilities that reflect and enhance those strengths. Creatures which are guardians and have the skill ranks to spend WILL have good abilities in Spot and Listen.

Part of my job as a DM is to provide a challenging, fun combat when the need for combat arises. I assume that NPCs will make intelligent choices in choosing their own abilities. That doesn't mean you custom-build everything to specifically counter the abilities of all the PCs, but it does mean that if a creature or an underworld PC has lived long enough to thrive and adapt in a violent world, then they probably didn't do that by burning feats on Skill Focus: Cooking, or cross-class ranks in Profession: Toilet Scrubber.

And yes, I do provide encounters which sometimes counter specific abilities. Someone with Spider Climb will eventually face a place of slick, wet walls or ice, and be forced to stay on the ground. Shadowdancers will eventually face creatures with smell, or creatures with access to Dust of Appearance, or Tremorsense, or Blindsense or Blindsight. If not all encounters should be custom-built to frustrate the players, then it naturally follows that not everything should be a cakewalk, either. I'm the DM. I should have fun, too. And my players don't seem to mind facing stuff that challenges them. They revel in it.

 

[Von Ether]

Well, in regards to picking feats and skills, etc., I don't want to min-max my NPCs too much. I figured these rogues were the "stereotypical" pickpockets and thieves, hence their feats were Stealthy and Run.

For the assassins casting true strike, after 3 rounds of observation, the following round they cast true stike, then the next round they entered melee and attacked. As far as my understanding of the rules, that is legal.

The stats for the Fire Knives seemed all right. According to the FRCS, the stats presented were those of the typical Fire Knive assassin.

I realize the need to sometimes tailor encounters according to the PCs abilities, but I'm not really into customizing NPCs to specifically counteract the abilities of the PCs too much. For the most part, I like to think of a theme for the NPC and try and go with that, hence the "pickpocket" rogues, while crappy in combat, fit the theme of being thieves.

thanks for the input though. Food for thought.

I've learned that if you make "realistic" NPCs, as compared to optimizing them against the party, you need to lower the CR by one or two. d20 isn't forgiving for the weak.

I tried to run a "realist" game once, assuming that most opponets weren't aware of the total potential of the PCs and everything was pretty much a cakewalk every time. In fact, the party took to hiding their true abilities to keep an extra ace up their sleeve until I just stopped being "realistic" and started making NPC tailored for their group, which is when things finally got challenging.

 

[dreaded_beast]

...If not all encounters should be custom-built to frustrate the players, then it naturally follows that not everything should be a cakewalk, either. I'm the DM. I should have fun, too. And my players don't seem to mind facing stuff that challenges them. They revel in it.

Very true.

Lately, I'm thinking many of my encounters have been a bit on the 'easy' side for my players, hence me posting this thread.

I think I just need more time and experience running and preparing encounters. Plus, coming to ENWorld helps alot.