3 player party and no cleric, need advise

[DragonLancer]

I'd say let them play what they want to, but allow them to buy healing potions. They are disposable items and it takes their hard won gold to buy them.

 

[takyris]

That's an excellent point, actually.

Now, question,
Taken as a given that it would be better to just switch to an alternate system, how do you think the idea of five free heal light wound spells per character per day would compare to such a system?

So, they can heal 5d8+25 damage per day? I think that unless somebody spent a lot of gold on it, it's a bit skewed. If we're going with 5d8+5 instead (first level caster), that's a bit more reasonable.

Regardless, though, at mid to high levels, the folks who have to rely on five CLWs per day are gonna be in trouble. You'd have to keep bumping it up in power.

In a campaign by itself, that's completely fine. If it works in your campaign, with that flavor, then go for it. Cinematically, though, the WP/VP system was designed to handle an adventuring group without a dedicated healer. I believe that it's closer to the way the average fantasy novel feels -- including even the majority of D&D-world novels, which tend to lack clerics.

I don't have a problem with playing cleric-filled D&D, because clerics completely rock. But if I wanted to play in a clericless party, I'd be aiming for WP/VP.

 

[dead]

What would make the most sense is for the party to befriend an adventuring NPC cleric and ask him to join.

Then they'd have a FREE walking medi-kit. Of course the NPC would get an even cut of the treasure so he wouldn't be that free. Also, it might be irritating for the GM to have an NPC hanging around.

Nevertheless, from a believability point-of-view this makes the most sense because adventurers are greatly disadvantaged without a cleric.

Otherwise they're just gonna have to find a lot of healing magic in their loot. This treasure would have to be potions or, if a Rogue has Use Magic Device then the selection can be broader but the Rogue's gonna have to make checks all the time.

 

[Herr Doktor]

Have one of the locals steer them toward the local temple of Pelor or Lathander or whoever, so they can pick up some healing potions.

Let them know while they're visiting the temple that they can hire junior priests to travel with them. Give these NPC priests wands with a few charges of cure light wounds, and a potion belt, but don't let them sink into the background as the healer. He can offer advice in his area of expertise (Knolwedge [religion]), he can turn undead, and should have a personality, just like any NPC.

Throw in a bit about the PCs being responsible for his well-being and protection and you can even use him as an adventure hook. Perhaps he'll travel with them if they're willing to aid him in exploring an old holy site to his deity. If he dies, the PCs will have to do a service for the church, or pay in some other manner.

Adding an NPC cleric to the party doesn't have to be "cheesy".

 

[ARandomGod]

So, they can heal 5d8+25 damage per day? I think that unless somebody spent a lot of gold on it, it's a bit skewed. If we're going with 5d8+5 instead (first level caster), that's a bit more reasonable.

Regardless, though, at mid to high levels, the folks who have to rely on five CLWs per day are gonna be in trouble. You'd have to keep bumping it up in power.

In a campaign by itself, that's completely fine. If it works in your campaign, with that flavor, then go for it. Cinematically, though, the WP/VP system was designed to handle an adventuring group without a dedicated healer. I believe that it's closer to the way the average fantasy novel feels -- including even the majority of D&D-world novels, which tend to lack clerics.

I don't have a problem with playing cleric-filled D&D, because clerics completely rock. But if I wanted to play in a clericless party, I'd be aiming for WP/VP.

Ah, yes... CURE light wounds is what I meant there. And first caster level.
Looking at the gold price, you're just being silly to go higher than that in caster level when making/buying the item.

IE, five times a day they can cure d8+1 HP.
Or to say, up to 5d8+5

Are we ever "in trouble" as you put it? Yes... that can happen. As I said, they're not really in combat type items, almost useless exept to heal up after combat, or to quick heal someone to keep them alive after going into negative HP.

And, I've agreed that other systems work better in similiar situations. But, without retooling and going to those other systems, how would you suggest healing that is fair, reasonable within the current system, and still actually works, withOUT needing a constant expendature of gold, or depending on an influx of convenitent magic items by an overly benificent GM?

The above seems to be fine... well, if you die in battle you die, but the characters heal up much faster afterwards, what with the healing one HP per level per day, and up to 5d8+5 HP's of available xtra healing, We can generally get back up to full without a horribly unreasonable wait.

We also try very hard not to get banged up too much. And there isn't combat every day in that campaign... and it's a given that we won't always be at full strength for random encounters... But that's a pretty realistic feel, or at least it has been in out campaign.

Now, as for many people's suggestion of a cleric NPC... that's great. But we run into the issue of what if you just don't want one, what's fair?

Sure, there's potions and wands of healing, various styles... but once again, thematics. You can't really carry enough potoins around for a serious adventure while being realistic... (Unless you have a magic bag of healing potion holding... and even then)

And some campaigns not only don't have players who want to play clerics, but may have players who don't want to be around clerics. Or the GM doesn't really want clerics around.

OR, perhaps, the entire campaign is set up around the idea that all clerics in the world are pretty much evil.

...

A specific campaign I'm in, for instance, couldn't really have a cleric in it.
As the adventurers are on a quest to awaken the old pantheon of gods, which gods do not have ANY clerics around... or only a very very few, who were frozen in time with the gods. Now, yes, there are indeed new gods. But they're the one's who put the old gods to sleep, through some betrayal and.... well, I don't really know the whole story. I DO know, however, that we are on a quest that will pretty much result in either the destruction or the downgrade of ALL the current gods, and therefore their clerics would likely not be happy about it.

Now, as for that NPC cleric offering his wisdom, it would probably be along the lines of either killing us, inprisoning us, or perhaps simply attempting to talk us out of it while calling down hell or heaven fires of damnation for our blasphemy.

And, really, we try to avoid clerics in that world.

I'm in a different campaign that DOES have a mystic... divine/arcane magic user... On the other hand, in that campaign we also attempt to avoid all mainline clerics, because there's not a single one of the party that wouldn't be burned at the stake for "witchcraft"...not even the fighter... By the clerics of that world.

There, we really kinda DO expect the spanish inquisition.
But, once again, an NPC cleric would be an enemy, NOT a friend.


Ah, and one last point about even a friendly NPC cleric:
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=45
From Haley, of the Order of the Stick...

 

[the Jester]

Let the chips fall where they may, it'll be okay. They will adapt.

My low-level group has no cleric either, though there are a druid and a couple of multiclassed bards.

 

[Targeteron]

Hi there,

some of you have mentioned a wound/vitality system and "reserve points". Please bear with me, I haven´t the slightest clue what you are talking about. Could someone give me an overview of how these 2 systems work or where I might find more info about it?

Thanks!

 

[Fenes]

My weekly campaign is at 14th level, with 3 PCs - Barbarian-14, Fighter-8/Weapon Master-6, Fighter-5/Duelist-8/Cleric-1. That's one cleric level. No NPC cleric either, though the PCs do have access to potions and scrolls, more for after battle healing.

Since I do not do Dungeon Crawls, and usually only have 1 fight per session it works out ok, but we play in a very heavyly modified Forgotten Realms, more grim and gritty, and less magic, and combat is more focussed on cinematic actions than tactics and strategy.

 

[Anditch]

Your group sounds quite similar to the group that i am in atm. Our group consists of myself a fighter bladesinger, 2 wizards and also a rogue. What the DM has given us is a chalice of healing. We are level 15 each the chalice contains 3 of each type of healing spell per day and 2 heals. This in theory is the portable cleric. Myself as the only real front line fighter carries it as I tend to get more damaged than the others. Also you could use a wand of cure wounds but give it endless charges. You can still be killed during battle but will be fully healed outside of combat. Or if u decide that item carrying is wrong then why not give the characters a pool of healing that is guarded and hire a spellcaster type character to set a teleport to this pool when u r in need of healing and go back and forth to it whenever needed.

 

[Urbannen]

Hi there,

some of you have mentioned a wound/vitality system and "reserve points". Please bear with me, I haven´t the slightest clue what you are talking about. Could someone give me an overview of how these 2 systems work or where I might find more info about it?

Thanks!

These systems are described in Unearthed Arcana. Also, Star Wars uses a wound point/vitality point system.

WP/VP separates actual physical damage (WP) from the ability to avoid damage (VP). The D&D system combines the two into one HP total. The most important difference is that characters heal back their VPs in hours, not days.

I don't remember the Reserve Point system too well, but I think with that system if you take damage and don't die, you can get back Hps/level every hour after being wounded, with a limit to the number you can recuperate this way every day. Again, characters get back Hps by the hour, not the day.

With both of these damage systems, healing magic is useful and can certainly save the day. However parties without access to healing magic don't have to spend days of game time healing, with that healing being threatened by unforeseen attacks. They can take a few hours off, then get back to campaigning. This is especially helpful for high-level fighters and barbarians who presently require days and days just to get back to full fighting strength after one difficult encounter.

The D&D damage system was designed so that one of the four iconic character classes would be indispensable for a D&D party. Instead of giving players more options, the current system takes options away because someone has to play a cleric.

I personally like to play clerics, but I don't like the fact that they aren't optional.