3d10 xp, for realism

[Odhanan]

I, too, go the other way - eliminate randomness in character creation and progression. I like PCs to be as balanced as possible, and I also want the players to be able to create exactly the character they want (within balance constrictions). Not only I use point buy, but I also give fixed hit points per level when advancing.

Me either.

Randomness is the kind of component in character creation that can make players frustrated with their character even before they begin the game. That sucks when that happens. I have usually two ways of handling the problem :

- if stats and other elements of character creation are generated randomly, then I try to create a balance through other means. For instance, a player that rolls sucky abilities might have a magic item with a nifty effect to compensate. The problem here is that sometimes it's hard to guess what's balanced and what's not, since it involves some guessing.
- or stats and other elements are not random at all. 30 points to buy abilities, determined number of XP and Gold for each character, hit die for levels after the first equal to half the die +1, that's usually the way I go. The problem here, however, is that balance concerns can limit the players in their choices for character creation. And I am the kind of the DM who loves to see a player have the best options available to begin the game.

 

[Darkness]

balance concerns can limit the players in their choices for character creation. And I am the kind of the DM who loves to see a player have the best options available to begin the game.

Just use more points. I for one do exactly that.

Besides, random scores can limit the players in their choices too - sometimes even if their concept is relatively reasonable.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I rather liked the idea that one poster used once: His old grizzled veteran had been away from war for years, and his lower level was the result of his being rusty at his battle-skills! After going back to campaigning for a few months (and gaining levels), he was back to his old fighting trim.

They used it in Knights of the Old Republic 2, too. You got severed from the force, but can reestablish the link over time (by gaining XP/levels).

 

[iwatt]

First of all. I apologize for the "absolute balance" comment. Wasn't trying to step on any toes. And I never tried to imply:

Stuff like "absolute balance" and accusing people that they want to balance everything perfectly, at the cost of everything else.

but I can see how that could be inferred. Again my apologies.

You let them reroll as often as they want?

"No, you cannot use point buy, you have to roll"
(rolls) "Damn, those stats are rubbish, can I reroll?"
"You can reroll as often as you like!"
"Ah yes? What about this: Let's just assume that I sit down now and reroll. If the values are those I wrote down on this here piece of paper, I keep them, otherwise I reroll again. Follow me?"
"Yes"
"So can we just screw that rerolling and I just use these rolls?"
"......uhm, Okay"
"Thanks for letting me use point buy"

I see were you're going. And you are absolutely correct. If someone wants to play exactly with a given set of scores, I'd probably let them (I'm assuming mature players here who wont try to play a 18x6 guy). The thing is my players like rolling the dice. If one of them asked me too use point buy in order to be balanced, I'd take the average point buy score of the other characters (from their rolls) and tell him to use that.

The part where you imply that pb charakters are min-maxed things, not so.

Now you're putting words in my mouth.
I'm pretty sure I never said that. All I said is that when I (capital I) use PB, my characters end up looking the same. This is great for me when I GM (were I usually use PB by the way), but isn't as much fun (to me) when I'm a PC. I like rolling a fighter and randomly determining what his mental abilities are.

Anyhow, I think I've hijacked this thread enough

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

I've eliminated randomness not just from character creation, but from the whole game.

I make up the player's characters ahead of time based on what I think they'll need and what they'll enjoy playing, and then instead of using dice, I arbitrate the outcomes of the actions I choose for the PCs based on what will advance the story in the way I have it plotted. Treasure is always chosen, never determined randomly, and XP is assigned in accordance with the value of the PC's actions, both goal-oriented and roleplaying.

This system is ideal. It provides almost perfect game balance, speeds up play immensely, and helps a great deal in maintaining the tone of the campaign.

If anybody's interested in joining my game, I still have openings for four more players. I'll decide who you are and drop you an email to let you know when to show up.
[/satire]

 

[Nifft]

Clay: Why not start everyone at 0 xp, but randomize their earned xp slightly instead? This, plus RP and "GM Bribe" awards, will ensure that people progress differently.

-- N

 

[Kae'Yoss]

First of all. I apologize for the "absolute balance" comment. Wasn't trying to step on any toes. And I never tried to imply:

but I can see how that could be inferred. Again my apologies.

Apology accepted. Let's just starte anew.

I see were you're going. And you are absolutely correct. If someone wants to play exactly with a given set of scores, I'd probably let them (I'm assuming mature players here who wont try to play a 18x6 guy). The thing is my players like rolling the dice. If one of them asked me too use point buy in order to be balanced, I'd take the average point buy score of the other characters (from their rolls) and tell him to use that.

Well, if they insist on rolling, then of course go for it. It's just my experience that several results were too bad (stuff that was just within the limits so there would be no reroll, but not really good for a character that's more than a one trick pony...) or too good (ok, not so bad for that player, but often these characters overshadowed everyone else), and it often led to frustrated players. So we did away with it

Funny story for that: In our first 3e campaign, we used a roll method that's stronger than the normal 4d6 keep: We had 7 rolls, discard the lowest, and increase one non-18 by one point. One player actually managed to roll two 18's, and played a quite straightforward druid: 18 Wis, 18 Dex. He always had more HP than my Bladesinger, even when he was only a fighter with the better HD. At high, and later epic, levels he was tank incarnate. Had enough HP to make some barbarians envious. For the next bigger campaign, d20M, I asked, almost begged the DM to use point buy. He refusted, using the same as before. Guess what? I got the two 18's, Dex/Con for my soldier. He hoped we wouldn't roll so high. Well, next campaign was point buy

Now you're putting words in my mouth.
I'm pretty sure I never said that. All I said is that when I (capital I) use PB, my characters end up looking the same. This is great for me when I GM (were I usually use PB by the way), but isn't as much fun (to me) when I'm a PC. I like rolling a fighter and randomly determining what his mental abilities are.

I seem to have misread it, then. I was referring to the " I end up with cooky-cut versions" part. It's my turn to apologize.

I don't think that it creates bland characters, though. I had quite a few characters with point buy now, often ones with the same general role (as in fighter, rogue, arcanist, priest). And they weren't all the same. I had that blackguard with Dex 8, Int 10 or so, and high Charisma, and at the moment I play a Chainfighter with Full plate with Dex 14, Int 13, and Cha 13. The blackguard was about hitting as hard as possible (with Power Attack and Divine Might), the Chainfighter, though he can hit hard with power attack, is more about disarming and tripping (as we have two new party members, a barbarian with a big bad sword and a archer-ranger, I am no longer the only hard hitter, and can concentrate even more about the tacitcal aspects).

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I've eliminated randomness not just from character creation, but from the whole game.

Great, just when one argument is resolved and all parties involved made piece, the next one comes and tries to pick a quarrel.

Fine. I bite. Of course, you're absolutely right. Randomness is a good thing, it favours the player characters after all. I have now done away with fixed stuff in my campaign. HP are rolled, Ability scores are rolled. Treasure is rolled. XP gained is rolled. The abilities of magic items are rolled each day anew. The players have to roll for gender, race, class (each time they level up). As soon as combat starts, every combatant is under a random action spell, and has to roll what he does, whom he attacks/buffs/heals/surrenders to.

I'm looking for 1d4 other players. The old party had a TPK when the rolls said the wizard had to cast wail of the banshee and the roll for the type of saving throw ended up with "none, spell effects everyone fully".

 

[Darkness]

Clay: Why not start everyone at 0 xp, but randomize their earned xp slightly instead? This, plus RP and "GM Bribe" awards, will ensure that people progress differently.

Good idea. The other common award (treasure) has (often optional) randomization tables as well, after all, so why shouldn't XP have an option for random awards too?

 

[iwatt]

I don't think that it creates bland characters, though.

Your'e probably right. The thing is, with point buy, I create bland characters . It's hard for me not to powergame. Even when that little voice says (put that 12 in str for your wizard, leave the 8 in wisdom) I just cant.

Actually, what works for me right now is the old 0 edition system. Roll 3d6 six times*. Werever they land, that's what you have. Make the character. This actually is working for me because I have so many different archetypes I want to play that I usually can find one that works

* Actually we use 4d6 drop the lowest. Arange in any order. Then roll a d6 to rotate the scores:

initial
16 14 15 12 7 9

roll a 3 to rotate

final
7 9 15 16 14 15

(hey a tubby wizard with a heart of gold )