D&D 3E/3.5 3e Made Me Into a Gronard

[helium3]

What I'm talking about is that many of our player and fans tend to think about things in a 3e sort of way. What I'm saying is that d20 has really infected everyone and their gaming style. Heck, even the new World of Darkness system has much of the same feel that 3e has/had.

I'm under the impression that the vast majority of the active RPG community plays 3E D&D. It's not so much that the game has infected people, it's that they just don't have much experience with any other way of doing things. It'd be like if Settlers of Catan was so popular and so heavily played that people couldn't look at any other board game without instantly comparing it to Settlers, even if the comparison isn't appropriate.

 

[ThirdWizard]

In the world of software development, if you take a preferred language and stick with that language above all others all the time, it can really mold the way you think about solutions to problems. A Ruby programmer will actually think about how things work differently than a C# coder, for instance. This means that if a C# programmer suddenly has to work in Ruby, he won't code in Ruby, he'll try to write C# code using the Ruby language. And, this is a problem.

This looks like a similar circumstance. A 3e player is trying to write rules for another system, but at this point, 3e is so ingrained that even though a different system is being developed for, 3e rules are still being used to do the work. The solution is to really dig into the new system. Run it until you start to think on its terms again, read the books over and over. Talk about it to people who play it as their favored game.

You have to be able to alter how you approach a problem depending on the rules set you're using to solve the problem.

 

[davethegame]

It'd be like if Settlers of Catan was so popular and so heavily played that people couldn't look at any other board game without instantly comparing it to Settlers, even if the comparison isn't appropriate.

It happens somewhat with Settlers, but happens all the time with Monopoly.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

In the MMORPG world it happens with World of Warcraft. It is normal for the predominant system to be in the minds of most people. No matter what you might think of it, right now D&D 3e is the predominant RPG.

 

[Mistwell]

I think it's bad any time people get used to something on such a habitual basis that they have trouble seeing new things objectively with an open mind.

Novel writers often talk about this problem. They read someone else's work, they love it so much they read it again and again, and it gets in their head so much that it harms their own ability to write a novel uniquely their own.

If you cannot even approach a new game system (and I do not necessarily mean 4e, since the OP isn't specifically talking about 4e) without thinking about it in terms of 3e, then you probably need a break from 3e. A a games creator, you've got to regain your perspective. I am not saying you need to quit 3e, just that you probably need a break.

 

[Wormwood]

I think it's bad any time people get used to something on such a habitual basis that they have trouble seeing new things objectively with an open mind.

When it happens to consumers, it's the difference between audience and fandom (an audience appreciates, a fan invests).

edit: My only advice would be to try a wider variety of games.

 

[Umbran]

Thoughts?

My thoughts are:

1) If it is about 3e, it isn't grognardism. "Grognard" is a name for people who came to the game long before 3e, and their attitudes are not particularly 3e-centric, in my experience. While I understand that language evolves, I think folks with 3e-style mindsets ought to find their own gosh-darned name.

2) In any case, all we are talking about is having a preference. It is not at all odd that your preferences and design sensibilities have been molded by the game that has dominated the gaming market for the past six or seven years.

I agree with the others here - as a designer, if you want to avoid having your sensibilities skewed, you probably have to spend as much time playing other games as you do playing D&D.

 

[Sacrificial Lamb]

My thoughts are:

1) If it is about 3e, it isn't grognardism. "Grognard" is a name for people who came to the game long before 3e, and their attitudes are not particularly 3e-centric, in my experience. While I understand that language evolves, I think folks with 3e-style mindsets ought to find their own gosh-darned name.

2) In any case, all we are talking about is having a preference. It is not at all odd that your preferences and design sensibilities have been molded by the game that has dominated the gaming market for the past six or seven years.

I agree with the others here - as a designer, if you want to avoid having your sensibilities skewed, you probably have to spend as much time playing other games as you do playing D&D.

It IS grognardism NOW. The meaning of words changes over time. Originally, the word referred to Napolean's "Old Guard", then referred to the old wargamers, then referred to the old 1e gamers, and now it's about to refer to the 3e gamers who aren't hip to 4e. You can call it "co-opting the language" if you wish, but a word's meaning can change over time, and a single word, can in fact, have MULTIPLE meanings.

When someone calls himself a 3e grognard (cool with 3e, not so with 4e), we know exactly what he's saying, and that makes such usage of the word correct.

And that's my two bits.

 

[Wormwood]

I think folks with 3e-style mindsets ought to find their own gosh-darned name.

Thrognard?

 

[Toben the Many]

Hmm. Still not getting my point across here. I think much of my resistance to 4e up to this point has been because 3e still infected my brain. As far as design work goes, I really don't have so much of a problem. Because my co-workers just slapped me upside the head and said, "You're still in 3e land, silly!" And I blinked and said, "Oh yeah. You're right."

This thread is really more about tracking down where my reservations about 4e are coming from.