3e players=consumers not creators
- Thread starter satori01
- Start date
Arnwyn
First Post
Henry said:
Have you considered "time" being a factor? It has been said that D&D players are an aging demographic, and thus less time is available to those players. I'm a working professional, and my time is *very* precious to me.
I'll wing it if I have to, but I much prefer using books as is, if they work for me. I am unhappy if they don't, because then I must spend my time doing the upgrades. Advancing some monsters is not as easy as others - and one nice thing about monster books (throughout all editions) is that they can be opened up and used right away. Not so if you need to constantly advance the monsters that were poorly done in the first place.
I'd rather spend what precious time I have designing adventures and the like - not updating what's already there. [To those people who have no problem making all these changes on their own and trying to tell everyone else to do the same - don't you people have jobs or lives? Not a jab at anyone in particular, just a rhetorical question.]
Bendris Noulg
First Post
It's never bothered me that a product isn't suitable as is. I've even gone at the Core Rules with a pair if trimming sheers for no reason other than wanting a dark and grim game, not one of super-heroic empowerment ego trips. That a suppliment, be it from Wizards of the Coast (whose products land in the middle ground of quality and applicability) or from another source is irrelevant. I'm only going to use the parts that fit my style of play. Sometimes it's 90% of a book (Relics & Rituals, for instance), othertimes it's 10% (Masters of the Wild), and oft times it will be 50% (Eldritch Might).
But looking at the Core, I can honestly say that I use about 75% of the Player's Handook, about 75% of the Monster Manual, and about 50% of the DMG. I use about 15% of MotP (Elemental Planes and Stat Blocks), while Deities and Demigods has acquired a nice layer of dust (and will likely continue to do so). Epic I will use most of, but I've cut a line clear through it between "High Level Play" and "Epic Status" (it would take to long to explain the difference...).
Now, if that's how much of the "Core" material "fits" my style and manner of play, why would I ever expect a 100% match from any other product, regardless of source? I certainly wouldn't, and have little sympathy for those who do.
As for Arnwyn's question: Yes, I have a wife (a fellow gamer), three kids, a full time career (overtime career, actually), run two web sites, and have no problems re-engineering a game from the ground up. I'm not, as you put it, "trying to tell everyone else to do the same". I am saying that anyone that doesn't is really just griping about their own unwillingness or lack of desire to do it.
But looking at the Core, I can honestly say that I use about 75% of the Player's Handook, about 75% of the Monster Manual, and about 50% of the DMG. I use about 15% of MotP (Elemental Planes and Stat Blocks), while Deities and Demigods has acquired a nice layer of dust (and will likely continue to do so). Epic I will use most of, but I've cut a line clear through it between "High Level Play" and "Epic Status" (it would take to long to explain the difference...).
Now, if that's how much of the "Core" material "fits" my style and manner of play, why would I ever expect a 100% match from any other product, regardless of source? I certainly wouldn't, and have little sympathy for those who do.
As for Arnwyn's question: Yes, I have a wife (a fellow gamer), three kids, a full time career (overtime career, actually), run two web sites, and have no problems re-engineering a game from the ground up. I'm not, as you put it, "trying to tell everyone else to do the same". I am saying that anyone that doesn't is really just griping about their own unwillingness or lack of desire to do it.
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
diaglo said:the circle remains unbroken.
3ed is a supplement fest.
just ask any of the d20 publishers.
*sigh*
The d20 publishers produce a wide variety of material for a wide variety of tastes. Back in 1e and 2e, there was only one source of material, almost exclusively - the few third-party publisher products were hard to come by - and you either had to take it or leave it. Variety is good; a huge volume of same-old/same-old isn't. But I get the feeling there is no point in trying to make this point.
Redleg06
First Post
diaglo said:the circle remains unbroken.
3ed is a supplement fest.
just ask any of the d20 publishers.
I think his point is that with 3E you don't NEED the supplements. It is designed for GMs to be able to tinker with the system rather easily. It is a "tinker-friendly" system.
Redleg06
First Post
I agree. Especially with a great resource like the internet available. Remember back in the pre-www days when you had to actually PAY for character sheets? Or just use (*gasp*) note-book paper!?
If someone publishes a supp that does all the work for you, great. If not, use the resources available. I think 3E is much better resourced than previous editions.
herald
First Post
The thing that I find most disturbing is that people want to load the monster up, but don't think on how to build the encounter.
Hazards can make the encounter much more interesting and dangerous, but are rarely brought up. The only thing that is discussed much is the raw CR of a monster.
DMs should be thinking, what can I do to make the encounter a certain CR value. Mixtures of creatures or perhaps special traps and hazards brought up in "Strongholder's Guidebook" could very well make the players day a living nightmare.
There have to be more to most encounters than I run up and kill it. Powerful creatres don't stay powerful by just standing out in the open.
Hazards can make the encounter much more interesting and dangerous, but are rarely brought up. The only thing that is discussed much is the raw CR of a monster.
DMs should be thinking, what can I do to make the encounter a certain CR value. Mixtures of creatures or perhaps special traps and hazards brought up in "Strongholder's Guidebook" could very well make the players day a living nightmare.
There have to be more to most encounters than I run up and kill it. Powerful creatres don't stay powerful by just standing out in the open.
barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
I'm starting to feel in a distinct minority for totally digging D&DG. I use that book all the time -- not for the deity stats (though I love poking through those for ideas) but for the deity creation stuff.
But then I have weird gods in my campaign who live in houses down the street. One of the sort-of PCs has become a god, and she's not liking it very much.
Anyway, I don't think things have gotten less creative, though I admit to surprise at how mathematical people get about stuff. I find it kind of hard to believe that, for example, CRs can be calculated with any real accuracy. But I have an English degree, so what do I know?
I also get surprised at how many people use campaign settings like FR or Kalamar. It's just weird because I've never known a soul to use any published settings and yet obviously MOST people do. Weird.
But then I have weird gods in my campaign who live in houses down the street. One of the sort-of PCs has become a god, and she's not liking it very much.
Anyway, I don't think things have gotten less creative, though I admit to surprise at how mathematical people get about stuff. I find it kind of hard to believe that, for example, CRs can be calculated with any real accuracy. But I have an English degree, so what do I know?
I also get surprised at how many people use campaign settings like FR or Kalamar. It's just weird because I've never known a soul to use any published settings and yet obviously MOST people do. Weird.
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Beyond the people who have little or no time for a lot of customization, it strikes me that there are many who get hung up on the actual mechanics to the point of not being able to see how easy it is to personalize their game. I'll try to explain what I mean.
Spells are perhaps the best example, or rather the whole D&D magic system is. Many seem to think that D&D magic is cast in one certain way, a way that somehow does not jibe at all with the magic from whatever book or movie happens to be a favorite. It's a metagaming mentality - "well, the guy in the book didn't cast the spell that way, so the entire D&D system has to be scrapped!" I've seen that a lot in regards to Middle Earth, for a specific example.
What is disregarded is that the mechanics are there to ensure that the spell works consistently with the rest of the game. The way the casting of the spell is described is far more mutable. Vocal components can be singing, forceful speaking, poetry recitation, mathematics equations, jokes, patter, a barely audible hum, a prayer, gibberish, whatever. Somatic components can be anything from sweeping and impressive arm-waving to a "robot dance." Material components can vary just as much. Any number of other effects can be added, from a blue nimbus around the caster's head to translucent demonic figures swirling around the caster. Whatever you want.
Beyond those cosmetic things, complaints are levelled at everything from spell slots (which are simply not that different from spell points) to levels (the characters don't run around saying "I went up a level, and now I can cast third level spells!" Levels just provide a game guideline, not necessarily setting atmosphere.). It really takes just a little rationalization, and almost no actual rules-changing, to make any of these factors unique to one's campaign.
Excuse the rant. I know it's nigh-incoherent. And I know that a flurry of posts will come along to tell me how wrong I am. So, to pre-empt it - You're right. I'm wrong.
Spells are perhaps the best example, or rather the whole D&D magic system is. Many seem to think that D&D magic is cast in one certain way, a way that somehow does not jibe at all with the magic from whatever book or movie happens to be a favorite. It's a metagaming mentality - "well, the guy in the book didn't cast the spell that way, so the entire D&D system has to be scrapped!" I've seen that a lot in regards to Middle Earth, for a specific example.
What is disregarded is that the mechanics are there to ensure that the spell works consistently with the rest of the game. The way the casting of the spell is described is far more mutable. Vocal components can be singing, forceful speaking, poetry recitation, mathematics equations, jokes, patter, a barely audible hum, a prayer, gibberish, whatever. Somatic components can be anything from sweeping and impressive arm-waving to a "robot dance." Material components can vary just as much. Any number of other effects can be added, from a blue nimbus around the caster's head to translucent demonic figures swirling around the caster. Whatever you want.
Beyond those cosmetic things, complaints are levelled at everything from spell slots (which are simply not that different from spell points) to levels (the characters don't run around saying "I went up a level, and now I can cast third level spells!" Levels just provide a game guideline, not necessarily setting atmosphere.). It really takes just a little rationalization, and almost no actual rules-changing, to make any of these factors unique to one's campaign.
Excuse the rant. I know it's nigh-incoherent. And I know that a flurry of posts will come along to tell me how wrong I am. So, to pre-empt it - You're right. I'm wrong.
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