3rd edition caster builds


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Apparently I can't ask about how casters are better than fighters in dnd 3rd edition, is there any place where I can do such a thing? Everyone talks about it and it's obvious however I am looking for specifics. Thanks

The reason no one can give specifics is that they do not exist. The ''casters are all powerful over the weak fighter'' is a myth. And worse it's one of the myths that everyone believes automatically with no proof.

All the builds are theoretical and can't really be done in a game. Worse most 'awesome' wizard builds ''interpret the rules the way they want to" at beast and out right ''cheat'' at worst.
 

The reason no one can give specifics is that they do not exist. The ''casters are all powerful over the weak fighter'' is a myth. And worse it's one of the myths that everyone believes automatically with no proof.

All the builds are theoretical and can't really be done in a game. Worse most 'awesome' wizard builds ''interpret the rules the way they want to" at beast and out right ''cheat'' at worst.

I can give many specifics.

To begin, let's start at the very beginning, a very good place to start.

In core, I have several example sorcerer builds, neither of which requires loose rules interpretations and both of which are quite powerful. James Solomon Ozymandias is my oldest and most refined, while Yathzee is a less cheezy build that is still quite powerful. If level 20 builds aren't your think, check out Serenity and Evan Evard.

Remember to check the box under the skill list that says "Display Spells and Powers" in order to have the sheet display spells and powers.

Are these builds more powerful than melee fighters? To begin to answer that question, let us discuss melee characters in general. Their weakness is typically that the only do one thing - hit things with a stick. This means their application is relatively narrow. Some melee classes can't even hit things very well, which means that they aren't even good at their job to begin with.

Spellcasters, meanwhile, have a great deal of versatility and power at their command; a wizard, druid, or cleric could prepare spells to deal with a wide variety of situations should they have time to prepare, so they can fill broader roles. And due to the existence of several powerful and/or unbalanced spells/class features, they can perform the roles of other classes. Druids, for instance, fight well once Wild Shape is acquired, and clerics with Divine Power get full BAB among other things.

Even if a caster does not know enough to prepare for a situation in advance, nothing stops him from preparing a selection of generally useful spells. For a sorcerer, this is their modus operendi, as you may have noticed from the above builds.

Feel free to ask any questions you may have, Evenglare. I'll try my best to provide specifics. Or, should you be in a sporting mood, engage in a level 20 arena match with a monk. Maybe bloodtide will even be good enough to roll up a melee character that will show me that I don't know what I'm talking about.
 
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I think the only only Fighter 20 build that can stand up to a straight caster is the lockdown build, and that is if the fighter buys enough magic items to give himself maneuverability and versatility to deal with what ever the caster can chuck at him.
 

1-4: wizard/sorcerer uses sleep or other save-or-lose spells that target will, the fighter's worst save.
5+: wizard/sorcerer flies and stays out of fighter's range.

But this isn't about class vs. class. When people discuss casters being superior, it's more about how they can handle the threats at each level. For fighters, they are extremely reliant on magic items, many of which they won't have until later levels. I noticed this in the current campaign I am in. I was playing the knight class (with maneuvers added), but did nothing most battles because the opponent was always flying. Whereas, the Healer and Beguiler, and even the melee Bard at least had stuff to contribute. And this is at level 7-8.
 

Posted this on another forum a while ago:

myself said:
I'll differentiate between strategy (overall method of going about your goals, campaign-level) and tactics (method of going about a particular encounter):


Being able to dictate when and where encounters will take place and under what conditions, is the most important strategically. Usually, this is done with a mix of:

good information gathering/scouting (including magical means like Scrying),
transportation (especially transportation that puts you out of reach, or brings you into encounter range, of opposing forces whenever you so choose, such as Teleport),
and methods of preparation for diverse situations (buffing routines, item crafting, gathering of allies).


Gaining extra actions for team hero, and/or denying actions to team monster are the most important tactically. This is rather complex but will include:

winning initiative (acting first can often mean you also act last, giving you more total actions than the enemy),
simply granting extra actions or actions out of turn such as by White Raven Tactics or Celerity,
buffing (which makes actions more meaningful or in some cases is what makes an action possible in the first place, e.g. with flying opponents you need flight to reach them, incorporeal opponents need magic etc.),
bringing in reinforcements with their own sets of standard+move action (such as through ally class abilities [animal companion etc.], summoning, necromancy...),

battlefield control (enemy movement restricted, be it by Solid Fog or Thicket of Blades plus Stand Still),
debuffs (enemies can't act meaningfully, such as through blindness effects, or are at least forced to act less meaningfully since their abilities are drastically reduced),
quickly killing opponents by whatever means necessary,
Bringing opponents over to your side.


Very broad, very general, I know.

You might have noticed that on the strategy issue, a noncaster can contribute much less than a caster. Sure, skills like Gather Information and Diplomacy can help you prepare, but they're no substitute for divination or mind control/necromancy/planar allies/etc., respectively. Furthermore, not much is stopping a full caster from investing a few skillpoints here or there, further restricting the mundane niche here.

What's more important, countermeasures to what the opposing force might be doing strategically are almost entirely relegated to magical power.


Tactically, now, the mundanes have some powerful options available. Killing the opponent outright is a good method of denying actions, and uberchargers aren't the only ones who can do this. A certain amount of buffing and debuffing can be done by nonmagical means, and some battlefield control, especially in the tanking variant, is possible too.

Nevertheless, all these can be done as well or better by casters. Regardless whether you turn into a melee monster and start hurting people, cast save-or-dies, or simple optimized damage spells, casters can kill things, there's no doubt about that. Moreover, buffing and debuffing is really their province, and Black Tentacles is battlefield control at the very least on par with an enlarged Spiked Chain lockdown Fighter.

But casters can play with the action economy even more effectively using a whole bunch of tricks at their disposal, which mundanes simply have no access to: they can go first more easily using the right spells, they can simply be untouchable until they choose to engage (and sometimes remain untouchable even then).
They can make more use of the actions they get through ongoing spell effects, spells that make use of swift/instantaneous actions (mundanes don't have much use for those), spells whose effect can be invoked as a move (such as Flaming Sphere) or even free action (such as Cloud of Knives).

Even if mundanes can emulate these things through magic items, it comes down to a caster who must provide these.

To use an oft-quoted metaphor, mundanes get their pick of a hammer, a screwdriver, or a pair of pincers. Maybe even two of those, and some mundane classes throw in a ruler and pencil as well, or a wrench etc. Some problems they'll be able to tackle with their chosen tool(s), but not all. Creative players can make many problems look like a nail if all they have is a hammer. But that's all they get.

I'm tempted to now go on to say that mundanes get one tool, while casters get a whole toolbox. But that's not even true. Mundanes get one or two tools alright. But casters get a tool factory, and the necessary workbenches, drawing rooms, and skilled workforce to dream up and create any tool they damn well please for the situation they're in. Don't believe me? Still don't believe me? Need even more convincing? OK, that's enough, I think. (and yes, I think it's rather easily conceivable that a given Sorcerer build might have all of these on hand without cramping his style in the least)

And on top of that, casters still get a bunch of premade quality tools to handle a lot of situations - or not get into them in the first place.


Sure, some of this only holds true from the mid levels onward - but that's an accepted fact, and kind of the basis of this thread, isn't it?
 
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