3x Empowered Cats Grace

[gfunk]

No offense intended, but I think you should consider your own question carefully before answering.

Stop and look at other 8th level buffs spells. They are pretty freaking powerful. We see things like Mind Blank, Protection from Spells, and Iron Body. All of those look a lot more impressive than 5-12 points of Dex.

In the PHB there were only physical buffing spells. However, the addition of splatbooks has given us the wonderful Cha, Int, and Wis boosting spells. If you are spellcaster a 5-12 point increase in your spellcasting stat for hours is an incredible boost.

Also, I found 8th level abjurations to be severely lacking. Mind Blank looks good on paper but it is really on good for PCs with crappy Will saves and sorcerers and wizards are not. Protection from Spells is not a big boost in saves if you have already maximized your resistance bonuses (e.g. +5 cloak). Also it is costly to cast repeatedly.

Iron Body is a joke. What kind of arcane caster would cast this spell? You would have to cast all of your spells Stilled or face a huge spell failure chance. Also 50/+3 DR isn't tremendously useful against the powerful foes you'll be facing at Level 15.

The real problem with x3 empowered Cha/Int/Wis buffing spells is when they are used in conjuction with other splat books. Spell Power, in particular, combined with the x3 empowered scenarios can lead to utterly obscene spell DCs.

 

[Limper]

So you propose changing (or already have) the rules because of three spells?

What does it really matter? Or are you just incapable of challenging casting classes and choose to Nerf everything about them instead?

 

[Limper]

OK sorry that might have been a bit rude of me... I'm letting other debates get to me.... I just really dislike the point of view and stance being taken by so many DMs I'm encountering... the "I dont want to take the time to make it challenging so I'll make the players even weaker" stance.

You DMs do realize that you have INFINITE resources at your disposal right? The players have a few choices and those are few and far between... why do you take them away?

 

[gfunk]

You DMs do realize that you have INFINITE resources at your disposal right? The players have a few choices and those are few and far between... why do you take them away?

Yes, but they do not have INFINITE time at their disposal. As a working professional my DM has neither the time nor the inclination to re-tool the stat blocks of an entire module. Also, the spells/abilities that we ban are by group voting.

Some abilities/spells are, unfortunately, incredibly broken in play. Sure you could keep Harm w/o errata but why should you base your entire campaign around one spell? You would have to give all of your BBG Rings of Counterspells, super high touch ACs, etc.

Just b/c an Anti-matter rifle is in the DMG, doesn't mean that my fighter should take Improved Critical (Anti-matter rilfe).

 

[Limper]

Wow your group votes? Ours is a totalitarian state... DM makes calls and we the player get stuck with the consequences. If you cant tell its just happened again and I was the recipient of the latest hamstringing event... so I'm bitter, very very bitter.

Your comment about the DM being a working profesional... so am I and if I didn't have time I wouldn't DM. Theres plenty of time to make the one or two changes to the stat block, all it takes is knowing what to do...

Harm I agree with its a bit much at level 6... +12 (on a good roll +5 on a bad) to Intelegence which is a +6 increase to DC... which can be countered by a potion of 3x empowered whatever (Master Alchemist pres class) to a stat... I dont see the big deal. I'd say its very much on par with the other 8th level spells.... Maze, Ottos Boogie, Horrid Wilting, etc.

And if you HAVE an AntiMatter rifle go ahead take Improved Crit in it...

 

[gfunk]

Wow your group votes? Ours is a totalitarian state... DM makes calls and we the player get stuck with the consequences. If you cant tell its just happened again and I was the recipient of the latest hamstringing event... so I'm bitter, very very bitter.

That kind of sucks, I certainly understand where you are coming from.

Let me put it this way, I don't have fun if I exploit one spell or ability over and over. It saps the fun out of the game. If I don't have a good chance of dying every few encounters, then it's not a whole lot of fun.

I can understand your point about DMing, but no one else in our group would want to do it -- too time consuming.

 

[kreynolds]

Personally, I don't really have a problem with a 15th level wizard getting a +6 increase in his spell DCs from a 3x Empowered Fox's Cunning. After all, he had to burn an 8th level spell to do it, and at that level, its the only 8th level spell he has.

If I did have a problem with it, I would have to ban 3x Empowered buff spells across the board. I mean, if +6 to spell DCs is too much, then +6 to damage, attacks, trips, disarms, etc with every hit for a fighter is just insane, no?

 

[gfunk]

If I did have a problem with it, I would have to ban 3x Empowered buff spells across the board. I mean, if +6 to spell DCs is too much, then +6 to damage, attacks, trips, disarms, etc with every hit for a fighter is just insane, no?

The problem inherent in spell DCs is insta-kill spells. If your DC is sufficiently high, then a spellcaster can can take out virtually anything with one spell, regardless of hit points.

Barring a vorpal weapon of some sort, the fighter has to whittle the hp of something to take it down.

Consider also that including spells from all sources can lead to potentially crazy results:

Consider a human Wiz 5/Red Wizard 10

Starting Int 16
1st level feat: Spell Focus (Necromancy)
1st level feat: Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy)
Spell DC for Necromancy: 17 + spell level

Then, toss in Spell Power +5 for Red Wizard levels
Add in a 3x Empowered Fox's Cunning
and sprinkle Greater Magical Flow Enhancer (from BoEM)

Your DCs are now 30 + spell level.

Even raging Barbarians will have a hard time making a DC 37 Fort save at that level.

Clearly you can make a fighter (esp. a ranged expert) a damage-dealing engine of destruction, but you cannot get a guaranteed kill like the mage described above.

But hey, if playing high-powered games is your cup of tea then go for it.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Since a 3x Empowered Cat's Grace is still a 2nd-level spell in terms of its resistance to Dispelling, I don't have a problem with it. Even the fighter BBEG's lower-level wizard sidekick probably has a decent chance to dispel it.

And on days when there is no wizard sidekick, well, they're high level players. I say let them play with their toys.

 

[gfunk]

Since a 3x Empowered Cat's Grace is still a 2nd-level spell in terms of its resistance to Dispelling...

Yeah, but the problem is that Dispel checks are based on your total caster level, not the spell level. So a Wizard hit with Greater Dispelling has the same chance of losing his Mind Blank as he does his 3x empowered buff spell.