4 Stealthy PCs + 1 loud metal paladin = ??

[Anubis the Doomseer]

Silence spell
Elvenkind items
Shadow moves ehancement to armor
Glamouring the armor (does the glamer effect sound as well?)
Giving the armor the "summonable" trait (so the paladin doesn't have to walk around in the armor for any length of time, just summon it as a free or move-eq action and boom it's there and worn instantly?)

Giving the paladin something to do that doesn't require stealth - like hiding in wait or its opposite, using his obviousness to flush out opponents?

I like Piratecat's idea but agree that it can cause problems with certain players who get upset at other people getting bennies.

I'm a paladin wearing commanding armor (so I have an even harder time hiding, but I'm still abysmal at stealth) in a party of stealthy types (elven mage, rogue/ranger and rogue/psion, group used to have a monk and a bard so more stealth squad types there). It's about working with the drawbacks inherent with your character.

- Ma'at

 

[swrushing]

I like Piratecat's suggestion and see it as a good thing for an experienced (even only a moderately experienced one) GM to introduce on occasion.

As a cautionary note, the downsides of it, were it to occur too often, would be the party coming to expect it. If they get the notion that they can make poor decisions and not have to work thru their own troubles and they **expect**the Gm will introduce some magical problem solver so they don't have to... that could be something that has a negative impact.

The specific problem indicated is one where the PCs can choose to alter their tactics to make use of their strengths. They can send part of the gang ahead and leave others back, when stealth is an issue. They can plan around the strengths and weaknesses. My gang had several stealthy and several tanks and they worked around it. Sure, sometimes this meant the stealth boys got caught and support was a few rounds away.

The Gm should be designing encounters that highlight the strengths (and to some extent) the weaknesses of the party. So there should be ample opportunity to see stealth as part of the solution as well as opportunities to see being tough and armor clad as part of the solution.

Let me diverge for a moment to my recent game, which just shut down. The party had seven PCs and no cleric. They had one multiclassed druid who could throw some healing spells. I could have chosen piratecat's option and had one of them gain some bonus healing abilities. Instead, i left them to their own devices, so to speak. They deliberately sought out the church of pelor in town, started making friends and offering services. They basically wanted to get in good with any healers, especially organized healers, and to use that alliance to gain healing, both items and people, to help offset their weakness. I thought it was a great idea of theirs, trying to diplomatically cover some of their tactical problems. It served for great roleplaying as well as a campaign notion that spawned a great number of adventures and personal attachments. One of the PCs ended up marrying a pelorian priestess before it was all said and done.

Had i given one of them a "bell ringer" healing solution, much of this may not have occured.

So, for example, if the party is wanting to solve their problem and not necessarily involve splitting up so much, they might befriend various orders and such to get and keep people who could make potions of silence, hiding, sneaking for them on good and friendly and hopefully indebted side. You might be needing to spur them a little by having an encounter where they find such potions or maybe are offered their choice among potions which include these, to give them the notion. Eventually, this alliance could turn into something formidable enough that armor of silence would be a possibility, if only after a really big favor or service. Working this route, instead of the "you are contacted by the bell ringer guy" leaves it still in the hands of the party and shows off the benefits of long term relationships and alliances directly in play. There is a definite sense of accomplishment for the players and not any hint of a sense of "expect the Gm to hand us a solution."

At least, thats how it played out with the healing bit in my game.

 

[Pyske]

In general principle, I don't disagree with the people suggesting letting the PCs work things out for themselves. However, bear in mind that Dunjin said this was "everyone's first campaign." New players often have enough on their hands learning the rules, and tend to start off a bit more tentative about being assertive and taking narrative control of the story. (IME, of course.) Assuming this is the case, I don't think it is all unreasonable for the DM to try to shepherd them toward a more fun experience.

. . . . . . . -- Eric

 

[swrushing]

In general principle, I don't disagree with the people suggesting letting the PCs work things out for themselves. However, bear in mind that Dunjin said this was "everyone's first campaign." New players often have enough on their hands learning the rules, and tend to start off a bit more tentative about being assertive and taking narrative control of the story. (IME, of course.) Assuming this is the case, I don't think it is all unreasonable for the DM to try to shepherd them toward a more fun experience.

. . . . . . . -- Eric

I don't disagree with this at all. The only thing i would say, and i kinda suggested this above, is that where you shepherd them is a big issue.

With newbies, to solve my healing problem, the churches would have made the first move, seeking the pcs out and offering as options things like healing potions and other clericy type supplies. For new players i wouldn't think of leaving them to take the first steps down the path but would have the NPCs get the ball rolling and have that and circumstance teach them why the notion of staying on the church's good side is a good move.

Had i instead done the bell ringer thing, then i would feel that i was teaching them the wrong lessons, teaching them that i would be handing them solutions. Then, later on, i would be needing to break them of that expectation and teaching them a second lesson... to seek out solutions.

Good players are taught. IMO start teaching them right right away and you make your job that much easier.

 

[Dunjin]

Well, I have no problem with giving them nuggets here and there. Their characters are special, both in the "PC Glow" sense and in the plot sense (they have destinies different from those of the rest of the world). Also, the point about new players having a lot on their mind is a good one. They're just now wrapping around AoOs and flanking bonuses, so giving them a hand here and there can't hurt.

I wouldn't just give the paladin this and ignore the rest of the party. I also wouldn't give it to him without bringing in the downside, that seekers of the secret and the saint's enemies (in the case of Piratecat's suggestion) would come to persuade him to give up the secret, violently if need be. I already have other ideas for the rest of the party: The fighter/rogue, for example, will likely have access to a special PrC thanks to some information she provided me in her background.

In the meantime, I'm going to let it lie for now and see what happens in the next adventure. Still, with a party layout like this, I can't ignore the fact that a lot of them want stealth stuff, and not every adventure can be a straight assault, which is what stealth missions turn into when the big shiny paladin appears.

 

[rbingham2000]

My players have a mostly stealthy group, but they keep running into a problem with the party paladin, who is decked out in plate armor and is about as stealthy as a flatulent elephant with cymbols strapped to its knees. The rest of the group are a rogue, a fighter/rogue, a ranger, and an elvish sorcerer with some ranks in Sneak.

Clearly there was some interest in stealth on the part of the players, but the one player went big and loud. In designing adventures and encounters, this disparity creates a challenge: How do I create stealthy situations that are also fun for Sir Loud-n-metal?

This also leads to trouble in situations where the party wants to use deceit but the paladin wants to go in and face things straight-up, either with violence or diplomacy.

Any pointers? How do I deal with this? Majority seems to vote for stealth and cleverness, but one important part of the group voted for plate armor and a greataxe.

Give the Paladin something that isn't quite so friggin' loud. A suit of studded leather or a chain shirt or something. He can keep the shield if he wants, but it's going to have to be rimmed with leather or something in order to keep it from making loud and obnoxious noises when it hits walls and stuff.

Then again, the Paladin might be channeling Han Solo from Star Wars: "Bring 'em on! I prefer a straight fight to all this sneaking around!"

 

[shilsen]

Lying IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN by the Paladin's Code of Conduct. Gygax has said (in his thread on this board) that the Paladin is supposed to be the epitomy of the "Christian Knight", and we all know "Thou shalt not bear false witness" is one of the ten commandments.

So, yes, the Paladin's Code DOES require being "rigid" (A.K.A. Lawful) about honesty. Sorry, I've just seen this lie posted once too often...

Sure.

If a paladin can use Undetectable Alignment, which is on his spellcasting list, then I'm pretty sure he can use an item which makes him a little quieter.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Sure.

If a paladin can use Undetectable Alignment, which is on his spellcasting list, then I'm pretty sure he can use an item which makes him a little quieter.

Agreed. The only reason for a Paladin to be cloaking his alignment is to infiltrate places where LG people aren't normally allowed. It's OK for him to be sneaky every now and then.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Give the Paladin something that isn't quite so friggin' loud. A suit of studded leather or a chain shirt or something. He can keep the shield if he wants, but it's going to have to be rimmed with leather or something in order to keep it from making loud and obnoxious noises when it hits walls and stuff.

There's a nice 'Oops' moment in The Thirteenth Warrior with someone refusing to take his breastplate off before sneaking around...

Then again, the Paladin might be channeling Han Solo from Star Wars: "Bring 'em on! I prefer a straight fight to all this sneaking around!"

Heh. I've had that happen in a game.

The Ranger and Monk had managed to sneak up to the entrance to the kobold caverns under cover, surprise the guards in the entryway, and take them all out before any of them had the chance to ring the alarm gong.

They motioned the rest of the party forward.

"Ah!" declared the paladin, spotting the gong and picking up the mallet. "Convenient!"

-Hyp.