D&D 4E 4e and reality

Except a power like "Grappling Strike" and every other power like that, doesn't inflict the "grabbed" condition. It says, "you grab" the target.

Okay, where in the power is the following in the target line:

You can attempt to grab a creature that is smaller than you, the same size category as you, or one category larger than you. The creature must be within your melee reach (don’t count extra reach from a weapon).
This is not in the target line of grappling strike. Therefore you need to prove that grappling strike is under this condition. Grab is an attack. They are not the same thing.

This isn't pedantry, this is important because you're interpreting the grab as making an entire attack - including a target line that isn't present in the original power.

You don't have to actually roll the grab attack, it just happens.
Correct, it also isn't subject to the target line of the power. The target has already been hit and grabbed - the target of grab has no effect as a result. The only way for grab to be relevant, is if you go through the procedure of making an attack against that creature using the grabbed power.

But, to say someone who uses the grab mechanic consistently across all powers is "confused" - well, that's kind of whack.
You are definitely mistaken here: Because the grappler fighter completely fails to work correctly under your interpretation. Many feats, powers and similar rely on grabbing. If they cannot grab a target - like a huge solo or similar - the class just doesn't work in that encounter. There is also agreement elsewhere with my interpretation.

Show me where, anywhere, in Grappling Strike where is says, "grabbed".
I don't need to, the power tells me what you can grab right in the target line: One creature. You need to tell me where the targeting restriction is, because the power does not have the restriction that grab does. That's what makes it better than grab.

You are conflating grab as an attack vs. grappling strike, which is not the same as a grab attack. Also "grab" implies the grabbed condition, otherwise would you explain the following:

Bigby's Icy Grasp said:
Hit: 2d8 + Intelligence modifier cold damage, and the hand grabs the target. If the target attempts to escape, the hand uses your Fortitude or Reflex defense.
Sustain Minor: A target grabbed by the hand takes 1d8 + Intelligence modifier cold damage when you sustain this power. As a standard action, you can attack another target with the hand, but it must release a target it has grabbed.
So according to you "Grab" doesn't mean grabbed. So how does the above power actually work? The hit line doesn't say it imposes the "Grabbed" condition it says it "grabs" the target. Yet the sustain relies on the creature being grabbed.

So in your entirely consistent opinion, can Bigby's Icy Grasp impose the grabbed condition for the sustain minor to work, or can't it? I can't see where it says on the hit line the hand imposes the grabbed condition, yet the sustain minor has to work somehow and yet they use the word "Grabs" just like the brawler fighter. It's pretty obvious that the "grab" is referring to imposing the grabbed condition - not going over some attack process that has already been done when you made the attack originally. Again, the confusion is that "Grab" is an attack, not a condition but wizards powers are badly worded so use "grab the target" instead of the more correct grabbed. The clear RAI (And RAW) is that grapplers strike is not subject in any way to the restrictions on grab (which is an entirely separate attack).

:p
 
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The new Rules Compendium spells this out better. It explains that all characters have an at-will power called grab. It says in the entry for the power:

"Although class powers and monster powers are usually more effective than grab at locking the target down, the advantage of grab is that anyone can use it, regardless of class.

Grab
At-Will
Standard Action Melee touch
Requirement: You must have a hand free.
Target: One creature that is no more than one size category larger than you
Attack: Strength vs Reflex
Hit: You grab the target until the end of your next turn. You can end the grab as a free action.
Sustain Minor: The grab persists until the end of your next turn."

It then lists the grabbed condition as "While a creature is grabbed, it is immobilized."

It's basically a matter of which power you are using. Either you use the Grab power that all classes have access to, or you use one of the Fighter powers which have a different target entry and therefore different restrictions and effects.
 

1) 'Grabbed' is not a condition, no more than 'suffering a bond of destiny' or 'entering the rage of the thunderfury boar'.

2) Fighter powers that allow you to grab follow the rules for the grab. The attack roll and hit for those powers contradict the grab rules.. you cannot have a Strength vs AC attack that adds weapon modifiers also be a Strength vs Reflex attack that does not. That is a contradiction. You cannot have an attack deal damage and not deal damage. That is a contradiction. Thusly, the power uses the most specific of the two... its own entry. However, 'one creature' and 'you can attempt to grab a creature that is smaller than you, the same size category as you, or one size larger than you' are not contradictory. They intersect, and you can easily have both occur at the same time. As they do not contradict, Specific beats General doesn't kick in, and you actually apply the normal rule for grabbing.

Many fighter powers don't work against creatures two steps larger than you, grabs are not even unusual in that regard. Nor is this fighter helpless, he still gets the regular effect of the power, the grab being all that is not allowed.
 

There is only one thing you bought up that I haven't really addressed conclusively in that post.



Except for the classes that are extremely good in melee and then forget how they use a weapon outside their turn? While I don't houserule melee training for free, I do agree the arguments people make that a battlemind or swordmage should be able to make effective opportunity attacks without needing a feat is a compelling argumet. Of course, Wizards are addressing this (I hope, at least Mike Mearls said they were looking into options), but it also funnily enough fits into this thread very easily.

A melee weapon based defender like the swordmage and battlemind that is equal to the fighter on their turn and utterly incompetent outside of it on an opportunity attack, (often important for a defender) is a pretty curious flaw in 4E. It's almost certainly something that I will do something about, because unlike the tangents on swarms and other things - this heavily impacts non-strength defenders ability to perform their roles. I agree a wizard doesn't need a good OA, but a battlemind and swordmage does. Otherwise they have difficulty actually being a defender.

And here we have an opportunity (opportunity argument?) to actually take a look at what is going on here. The reason people are offended by the fact that a rogue (for instance) can't make particularly effective OAs is "it doesn't make sense". Like it or not the game system IS a way of adjudicating some sort of action which is fundamentally rooted in people's common perception of reality. Characters are fictional PEOPLE, they live in a fictional WORLD. Now, admittedly, that world isn't exactly our world and the fictional people aren't exactly ordinary people, even in that world, but just like ANY other form of fiction a D&D game tries to live in some region of suspension of disbelief. The more you examine the game, the more you find that it fundamentally depends on assumptions based in this common understanding.

The question is how do we choose to resolve the tension between the GAME aspect of an RPG and the FICTION/STORY aspect? While some people would try to say that there is some clear line here the truth is that there isn't. This is well illustrated by the somewhat haphazard application of various 'realistic' rules like undead being immune to poison. Sometimes the designers chose fiction over game, and in other cases they chose game over fiction. It is really a fairly arbitrarily drawn line. Beyond that the game is catering to a wide range of different groups. Some groups want to play a pure abstract wargame with at most a thin veneer of plot where game considerations are paramount. Other groups want to play a different type of game where the logical consistency of the world is driven by considerations of fiction and not so much by rules.

No one approach is best for all groups and no one set of rules is going to be ideal in all situations for both types of play. Plenty of groups reduce monster hit points, increase damage, and use various other types of house rules for game reasons. Plenty of groups interpret the rules through the lens of fiction too. I know what type of game I and the people I play with prefer. Honestly, after DMing for THIRTY FIVE YEARS this way I think I'm qualified to handle dealing with the balance between what the players see as fictionally consistent and some sort of rules apocalypse.

[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] Sorry, with me at least, you're just not barking up the right tree. I think there are a number of things that DMs do for the game. Being dictator isn't one of them, but for lack of a better term I will say that 'director' is a pretty good description of the DM's core role. Ultimately at some point someone at the table DOES have to have the ability to make a decision. This is necessary for the game to progress smoothly. When 2 players have a dispute about the rules SOMEONE has to be able to say "OK guys, this is the way we're going to do it." There may be plenty of talk about what got done later, maybe even some retcon or an acknowledgment that it will be done differently next time or a group decision.

The DM MOST CERTAINLY IS in charge of many elements of the plot. Now, you could adjust the plot responsibility quite a bit, but without putting the DM in charge of the plot at SOME level at least many things will not be possible. Sure you could run a murder mystery plot with all the players deciding the plot, but there will be no suspense for the players. This would be fine if you're staging a play, but in a play the audience and the actors are (usually) not the same people. In an RPG the actors are the audience. This has a lot to do with shaping the form the game takes and is a determinant factor in much of the DM's role.

Now, none of this means the DM is any sort of dictator or even any kind of boss. I'm SURE as heck not the boss of any group I run games for. I know a lot of people THINK that is the way to be a DM. If your guy Victor is, as I pretty much gathered, simply saying in a rather elaborate way that this is not true then I agree with him. However the game master DOES have a central role as I've said before. It is an enabling role, but it does also include a certain degree of arbitrating. While the DM should respect player's resources (the character's abilities for instance) that isn't sacrosanct. There are many cases where a game master should grab hold of the story and bend or break the rules for a greater end. The players could do this as well, as long as they all agree that is the way to go, but as I showed earlier the DM has a hold on the plot, a perspective that the player's as audience cannot have. That gives them a responsibility to edit the rules now and then.
 

The clear RAI (And RAW) is that grapplers strike is not subject in any way to the restrictions on grab (which is an entirely separate attack).

:p

Hey Aegeri, WotC seems to disagree with you:

Me said:
Customer (Michael Pfaff)09/10/2010 06:17 PM If a power allows you to "grab the target", must you also follow the restrictions for grabbing as outlined in the Grab attack maneuver (such as the restriction of only being able to grab a creature of one size category larger)? Or, does this restriction not apply to powers that allow you to grab?

Thanks!

Mike

And, WotC's response:

WotC said:
Response (Support Agent)09/10/2010 06:30 PM Hello Michael,

Thank you for contacting us. Unless the power specifically allows you to break the rules of a Grab, you must conform to all of the rules outlined in Grab. I've included the most up-to-date rules on the Grab action below.

"Grab
You seize a creature bodily and keep it from moving. The creature you grab can attempt to escape on its turn (see “Escape”).

GRAB: STANDARD ACTION
Target: You can attempt to grab a creature that is smaller than you, the same size category as you, or
one category larger than you. The creature must be within your melee reach (don’t count extra reach
from a weapon).

Strength Attack: Make a Strength attack vs. Reflex. Do not add any weapon modifiers. You must have at least one hand free to make a grab attempt.
Hit: The enemy is immobilized until it escapes or you end the grab. Your enemy can attempt to escape on its turn.

Sustaining a Grab: You sustain a grab as a minor action. You can end a grab as a free action.

Effects that End a Grab: If you are affected by a condition that prevents you from taking opportunity actions (such as dazed, stunned, surprised, or unconscious), you immediately let go of a grabbed enemy. If you move away from the creature you’re grabbing, you let go and the grab ends. If a pull, a push, or a slide moves you or the creature you’re grabbing out of your reach, the grab ends."

Good Gaming!

(emphasis mine)

As always, house rule to your liking! But, that's not the official ruling. ;)

2) Fighter powers that allow you to grab follow the rules for the grab. The attack roll and hit for those powers contradict the grab rules.. you cannot have a Strength vs AC attack that adds weapon modifiers also be a Strength vs Reflex attack that does not. That is a contradiction. You cannot have an attack deal damage and not deal damage. That is a contradiction. Thusly, the power uses the most specific of the two... its own entry. However, 'one creature' and 'you can attempt to grab a creature that is smaller than you, the same size category as you, or one size larger than you' are not contradictory. They intersect, and you can easily have both occur at the same time. As they do not contradict, Specific beats General doesn't kick in, and you actually apply the normal rule for grabbing.

Many fighter powers don't work against creatures two steps larger than you, grabs are not even unusual in that regard. Nor is this fighter helpless, he still gets the regular effect of the power, the grab being all that is not allowed.

This is absolutely correct. Good job Draco. I'd give you XP but it seems I already have recently.

Let's not even get into the fact that, as Aegeri outlined above, the target of a grab must be "a creature" - a swarm is multiple creatures represented by one hit point total. That's precedent for not allowing a swarm to be grabbed in some situations... But, hey, that's something we've beaten dead already. Heh.
 
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Thanks. Did you have any thoughts on my reply to you upthread?

Many thoughts! It challenges some of my assumptions as to how 4E runs. I have been taking some time to think it over.

I will approach it based on my experiences in play, and contrast it to the current game I'm running (my 4E hack).
 

Let's not even get into the fact that, as Aegeri outlined above, the target of a grab must be "a creature" - a swarm is multiple creatures represented by one hit point total. That's precedent for not allowing a swarm to be grabbed in some situations... But, hey, that's something we've beaten dead already. Heh.

Well, actually, a swarm is multiple entities represented by a single creature. Otherwise that very precedent would exclude every attack in the game that targeted a finite number of creatures or enemies.

Multiple entities, but only one creature. Creature is, of course, a game concept, and not an actual statement of singularity or uniqueness.
 

Well, actually, a swarm is multiple entities represented by a single creature. Otherwise that very precedent would exclude every attack in the game that targeted a finite number of creatures or enemies.

Multiple entities, but only one creature. Creature is, of course, a game concept, and not an actual statement of singularity or uniqueness.

Good point! I retract my statement.
 

Well, P1NBACK, if you accept that the game treats a swarm as a single "creature" (as the game defines the term, why is it impossible to accept that the game allows you to "grab" (also a game defined concept) that creature?

This is a problem that has always plagued the game - trying to apply dictionary definitions to game terms.
 

Well, P1NBACK, if you accept that the game treats a swarm as a single "creature" (as the game defines the term, why is it impossible to accept that the game allows you to "grab" (also a game defined concept) that creature?

This is a problem that has always plagued the game - trying to apply dictionary definitions to game terms.

It's not impossible. I've said 100 times that I certainly permit grabbing swarms - so long as you say it (justify it) in the fiction. I wouldn't let you grab a swarm just by saying "my power let's me grab it" just like I wouldn't allow you to use Intimidate by saying "I want to roll an Intimidate check". I don't know how to clarify this further. I've tried many, many times to clarify this, but you guys keep arguing me about "not allowing grab".

Like, Draco said, a swarm is made of many "entities" or beings and that has nothing to do with "creature" because creature is used in that entry as nomenclature for one specific "challenge" or monster in the game text. So, it makes sense not to make judgment calls on that.

The difference between grab and creature is that grab is an actual action that reflects grabbing something with your hand (you have to have a hand free to do it, right?) but "creature" is an open-ended concept that covers a generalized definition of monsters in the game. It doesn't have any fictional concerns however - it's only mechanical. Humanoid is a "game term" as well, but it has specific fictional concerns. Grab is like humanoid, not creature in that respect. Creature is more akin to "feat" or "Daily power" - nothing fictional about those. It's a mistake I made, and Draco called me on it. I acknowledged the mistake. At least I have the courage to do that when I'm wrong.

I'm still waiting for Aegeri to respond to WotC's ruling on grab. That should be interesting. ;)
 

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