D&D 4E 4E boon or bust for Old School support?

[Maggan]

Orcus, one option (if you did want to make a few OSRIC modules) would be to make them 100% OGL compliant and then send them over to WOTC to take a look at.

They would ignore the manuscript. It is a stated stategy of WotC not to get involved on judging the legality of third party publications. That responsibility rests solely on the third party publisher.

Andf I believe that Orcus, if anyone, is aware of what WotC will and won't do when it comes to the d20STL and the OGL.

/M

 

[T. Foster]

Orcus, what are your thoughts on producing OGL adventures that could be played with 1E rules without using OSRIC at all? (That is, publish under the OGL, use OGL terms, et cetera, but present the material in a "1E friendly" manner.)

I'm curious about this as well, since Goodman Games has released 2 products doing exactly this (OGL products with obviously AD&D-derived statblocks and advertised as "1E" versions, but with no explicit indication of what that actually means). Do you consider those products risky in the same manner as XRP's OSRIC-compatible products? If not, why not?

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

You're right, Matt, I'm not Valiant.

I've got to say that I'm extremely bored with the "is OSRIC legal?" question.

I'm grateful for the benefit of Clark's opinion, and I'd just like to add that US law is about as relevant to me as the law of Botswana or Peru.

 

[Orcus]

This is not legal advice, but I see absolutely no problem with doing what was proposed above (OGL adventures using 1E terms also contained in the SRD with no OSRIC at all). Just refer to the monster names and to class names and things like that. Leave out the 3E stat blocks. And you've got yourself a 1E compatible module without any of the problems of OSRIC. You've always been able to do that with the OGL. In fact, you could even probably put a "compatible with the 'old school' edition of the world's most popular roleplaying game" on your product (but I'll leave that up to you). I've considered doing this. Of course, you might have some trouble with some things, like saving throws, but you could get around most of that. The good thing is that 3E gives you MORE than you need to do 1E. It would be near impossible to do 3E stuff if only the 1E content was in the SRD, but doing 1E stuff with a 3E SRD is way more doable. The only problem remains telling your fans that this is a 1E product. That is the hard part. You could do that several ways, of course. First, make it look like a freaking AD&D module a la Goodman. Second, get the word of mouth out.

I absolutely think you can do that.

Clark

This is not legal advice. Hire a lawyer.

 

[Orcus]

Actually, if you are a US company and you create and distribute products in the US then US law is relevant to you in that you would be sued in the US by a US corporation named Wizards of the Coast. Granted, there may in the end be a choice of law issue. And international questions of copyright will likely arise. And your case may be removed to federal court. There are all sorts of issues. But the fact that the source OSRIC document was created by a company or person in another country does not provide an unassailable shield for domestic companies who choose to use it and its contents and refeer to it on their products that they either create or distribute here. So this idea that "hey, I'm not in the US none of this applies to me" is a dangerous idea. because we arent only talking about your creation of OSRIC we are also talking about other people's use of it. US law will very much be relevant to them.

Clark

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

If it happens, there are responses I could make.

But thanks for your view, Clark. I appreciate it.

 

[Mythmere1]

I should also say that even though I got the ball rolling on the OSRIC project, I'm not particularly invested in it. I don't play straight AD&D, I play a hybrid mishmash that takes elements from 2e and even things I liked from 3e. My real goal right now is to focus gamers from all the editions on the fact that the core of fantasy gaming is not a matter of rules. Rules are at the periphery - imagery, creativity, and interesting tactical situations are the true heart of all the editions.

Necromancer Games is one of my three favorite 3e publishers along with XRP and Goodman Games. I own the first Rappan Athuk module, 2 Tome of Horror books, Necropolis, and probably other NG products I don't recall at the moment. What NG does is to write modules that challenge player skill rather than merely the numbers on the character sheet. In other words, for example, you need to interact with the situation before you get a search check (or you get a bonus for actually doing the right thing, at the very least). That's what distinguishes the products of these publishers from d20 drek that bypasses player skill to only challenge the numbers on the character sheet.

The result is material that's usable in other editions, because NG takes the time to focus on the imagery, creativity, and interesting tactical situations. The numbers and stats are useless for other editions, but the meat of the module is still there; you can buy the author's creativity no matter what edition you play. The relative value is less than it is for a 3e player, but there's still value.

So, quite the opposite of what Valiant's saying, I think NG is doing great stuff. It's got "flaws" for the 1e community because it's for a different rule set (and mainly my problem with this is the necessary word-count for 3e stat blocks), but the core of fantasy is still there, and that core is high quality.

We all need to focus on the creative core of fantasy gaming that's the same for all the editions, not on the peripheral matter of the specific rules.

 

[T. Foster]

I've considered doing this.

Depending on what the product is*, I'd very likely buy it

*not Rappan Athuk, because I already own the d20 version and wouldn't want to buy it again, but I'd be very tempted by some of your other well-regarded early modules that are now oop (Tomb of Abysthor, etc.)

 

[Mythmere1]

Actually, if you are a US company and you create and distribute products in the US then US law is relevant to you in that you would be sued in the US by a US corporation named Wizards of the Coast. Granted, there may in the end be a choice of law issue. And international questions of copyright will likely arise. And your case may be removed to federal court. There are all sorts of issues. But the fact that the source OSRIC document was created by a company or person in another country does not provide an unassailable shield for domestic companies who choose to use it and its contents and refeer to it on their products that they either create or distribute here. So this idea that "hey, I'm not in the US none of this applies to me" is a dangerous idea. because we arent only talking about your creation of OSRIC we are also talking about other people's use of it. US law will very much be relevant to them.

Clark

This is correct. I think P&P is actually referring to the ins and outs of personal jurisdiction, venue, choice of law, and possibly forum non conveniens. Parts of the matter would almost certainly play out under British law rather than American, even though things would start under American law.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

This is correct. I think P&P is actually referring to the ins and outs of personal jurisdiction, venue, choice of law, and possibly forum non conveniens. Parts of the matter would almost certainly play out under British law rather than American, even though things would start under American law.

Well, actually I was trying to avoid discussing any of those. They're nobody's business but mine and/or anyone who tries to bring an action against me, which for various reasons that you understand because you've seen some of the correspondence, is vanishingly unlikely.

You and I know what we think. Now we know what Clark thinks too.