4e Buyers remorse

[Dan'L]

I think, as a player, I'd be really really annoyed if another player had to constantly tell me how to run my own character, never mind telling me how I should build it. Are the other players really okay with this behavior?

A superhero system of some kind, particularly a rules light one. We use one of these for our break games. I don't know the system name, since I don't run it, and the system is light enough that all we need to know is our own character's abilities. I'll update with it if I figure it out.

This one, by any chance? (Capes):Muse of Fire Games

-Dan'L

 

[Aus_Snow]

It's a small step to go from buyer's remorse to seller's satisfaction. Surely there are plenty of people looking to buy 4e books. So hey, sell and be happy!

Or trade. There's a big ol' sell/buy/trade thread stickied at the top of the RPG Open forum at RPGnet. Maybe you can get a great 1:1 (or better) deal, going from 4e to something that suits you better.

 

[Cadfan]

Dan'L- no, its a system where the core mechanic is rolling a 2d10 and telling the DM your result and your relevant ability score. He consults a chart and tells you the in-game effect.

 

[Votan]

Kind of odd you't try to move that aspect of the discussion to a new thread, since the OP's issues were:
1) prep time

Funny, I see lower prep time as being a 4E feature and wonder about experimenting with different approaches to preparation. I know that its not universal but it can be tried.

Another option is to buy and run a module. It's how I learned 3E from AD&D and it worked pretty well.

 

[S'mon]

Sounds like GM burnout, a common ailment. Take a break!

Edit: The retro-clones are great. Maybe offer to run a one-off game of Labyrinth Lord (etc) while you're on your break, see how you like it.

 

[conanb]

I must say that I agree with the OP on more prep time.

Let me explain first what type of DM I am. I am a minimal prep time DM who likes to have monsters and people on hand that I can toss in on the fly depending on what the players are doing. The players in my game have free reign to do what they want and then the bad guys respond to that. They decide to not storm the bad guys headquarters, but instead seek out the enemies allies and recruit them to attack the place instead. Or trail the messenger to the next link up the chain, etc.

But what I've found with 4E is that the combats are much more interesting if you work in terrain features, monsters, and other things to interact with during combat that are balanced prior to the fight. That means for me to still play the game I like requires me to not just create monsters to use on the fly, but terrain features, possible places for fights, etc.

See I don't randomly pick 3 monsters from the book that are controller, minion, and soldier. I like to have a reason and story behind why all my creatures are working together. More work.

Overall, 4E has greatly increased my prep time as a DM who doesn't like to run games with pre-set encounters that I have the players run into no matter what they are doing or where they go. When I play like that 4E seems very forced to me.

I must say that overall I really like 4E but for a DM like me it has greatly increased my prep time and on that point I totally agree with the OP. 4E is a lot of work for my DMing style, which I think puts me and the OP in the same DM style. That obviously isn't the same as those who say it's greatly reduced prep time. We have different styles and 4E doesn't work for all DM or player styles.

 

[Mercule]

The reason prep time is increaced is-
1)I was a huge just wing it guy and really dont think that belongs in 4e
2)when I say this group is min-maxed-I mean it.,

That's rather what I experienced with 3e, except that my group is whatever the opposite of min-max is. Regardless, I think the emphasis that 3e and 4e place on balance is a huge chunk of what slows things down for me. I winged pretty much everything in 1e and 2e, and balance was what I made of it. 3e was both balance-focused and complex, while 4e is balance-intense and simple (comparatively). 4e also doesn't have any handy-dandy treasure tables like every other version of the game has and WotC can't be bothered to actually write complete modules (i.e. with treasure), which increases prep time.

So, for me, my 4e prep time is huge if compared to 1e, but quite mild if compared to 3e. YMMV, of course, depending on your pressure points. I'm starting to realize, though, that one of the biggest handicaps I have for prepping 3e and 4e is the design for certain definitions of balance assumptions that go into the books.

 

[Stormonu]

Taking a break sounds like it may be the best thing to do.

You also might want to consider starting with a new set of 1st level characters, and emphasizing to your min-maxer to avoid pimping everyone else's character. As you yourself noted, it's hard for folks to play a character that someone else essentially built.

 

[S'mon]

I must say that I agree with the OP on more prep time.

Let me explain first what type of DM I am. I am a minimal prep time DM who likes to have monsters and people on hand that I can toss in on the fly depending on what the players are doing. The players in my game have free reign to do what they want and then the bad guys respond to that. They decide to not storm the bad guys headquarters, but instead seek out the enemies allies and recruit them to attack the place instead. Or trail the messenger to the next link up the chain, etc.

But what I've found with 4E is that the combats are much more interesting if you work in terrain features, monsters, and other things to interact with during combat that are balanced prior to the fight. That means for me to still play the game I like requires me to not just create monsters to use on the fly, but terrain features, possible places for fights, etc.

Hmm - it seems to me that if you have the broad outlines sketched, then monster types and terrain elements should be naturally emergent properties of the setting. You know there's a bandit camp in the woods, so if the PCs go there you use the Human Bandit stats for baseline banits, maybe some Human Rabble minions to bulk out a large group if the PCs are low-level; likewise Human Lackeys if they're higher level. For the big brute bandit, use Human Berserker. For the bandit leader, Half-Elf Bandit Captain or maybe Human Noble from MM-2 work well. The Half-Orcs in MM2 make for nice lieutenants/bodyguards. Want a spellcaster? MM Human Mage, or MM2 Half-Orc Death Mage.

For setting elements, sketch some tents on the battlemat, with a campfire, maybe tent-ropes to trip over. Maybe a stream. Some trees to hide behind. An area of thorn bush, or boggy ground. The occasional cliff to fall over. Whatever feels right - I like to use Paizo flip-mats a lot, the pre-drawn ones provide a lot of inspiration. Dungeon Tiles are not good for winging it, too fidddly - but I guess you could grab a couple random ones and see what you get, then stick them on the battlemat.

After the fight, add up the XP for the bandits, and give to PCs. Voila.

 

[Stacie GmrGrl]

I don't know about you but I'm pulling out of D&D completely. I might be a player but I'm getting rid of all my 4e stuff and going with Fantasy Craft for my go to d20 fantasy game... 4e, while fun, is just becoming more of the same...and I mean more of the same regarding the crunch, massive gloat of feats, classes, races, etc, etc, etc...

And the future only looks like its going to get worse, and I can't keep up, so I'm done with it.

Just not for me anymore. It just takes to long for me to prepare encounters, because i have to cater to 4 distinct roles in the group, and I have to examine the different types of monsters and how they play and how they fit into groups, and its just way to much.