4e Buyers remorse

[AnthonyRoberson]

...I kinda think my solution is to go to an OD&D clone but Im not sure my players would want that...

I had a very similar experience. I just don't have the time to adequately prepare for 'modern' D&D. My solution was to go with Swords & Wizardry because it is dead simple, but a good compromise might be Castles & Crusades. It has that old-school feel dressed up with some new school mechanics.

 

[S'mon]

But see in my game the players may or may not ever go there. Sure there is a bandit camp in the woods, but my players might go fight them directly, lay a trap, skip them and hire someone else to fight them and continue searching for the mystical key, decide to do none of that and attack the merchant across the street. I feel that the point of a tabletop RPG is for players to do whatever they think their characters would do. And although there may be bandits in the woods, I would say that my group might go stop them only 50% of the time.

I suppose that goes along with my view of what a DM is. I am referree of their actions. I interpret the consequences of their choices and the effect those have on the world. Yes there is usually a greater story going on, but choosing not to participate in that story is a valid choice for how that story rolls forward. If the players choose not do anything about the bandits, then they're attacks on the local village continue unabated. Perhaps then the evil sorceror will have his plan to take over the land move one step forward unopposed. Either way I leave it in my player's hands to decide and take part in the world.

Uh, yeah - I was talking about what you do *after* the players have decided to go to the bandit camp in the woods. :\

 

[S'mon]

Two problems, off the top of my head, I have with winging encounters in 4e...

The 1st one is that there aren't any base, run-of-the-mill creatures. I mean if I just want a bunch of Goblin thugs in 3e I flipped to a run of the mill Goblin and only had to deal with one set of stats. Give them all ranged and melee weapons and I'm set. No memorization of unique powers, give them all the same hit points, they all have the same AC, etc. Then if I need a specialized Goblin I used a different stat block or designed it myself.

In 4e I feel like I have to decide if each one (in an off the cuff encounter) is a Goblin Warrior, Goblin Blackblade, Goblin Sharphshooter, and so on. Each of these has at least one or more unique powers which I must keep track of, varying hit points, AC, and so on. Now I also have to consider the makeup of present roles in my party, or this inconsequential encounter could prove way harder or way easier than I anticipated. Now I guess alot of people will say just use minions, but in my experience a fight of just minions is rarely exciting or even worth it, I like them as back up but not as center pieces.

I normally use minions for the bulk of the group, supported by 1-3 standard monsters. This makes for a quick but reasonably challenging encounter.

If I were improvising a fight with goblins for 5 1st level PCs, hmm I guess 3 blackblades & 8 minions would work.

 

[Primal]

BTW, do NPCs ("monsters") of different races have the PHB bonuses to stats, i.e. does an eladrin Soldier have a bit higher Dex, AC, Ref and Init than a human Soldier? Or is the only difference in their powers?

Also, is WoTC including the errata in subsequent printings of the books, or is it only included in the 'Deluxe edition' core line?

 

[S'mon]

BTW, do NPCs ("monsters") of different races have the PHB bonuses to stats, i.e. does an eladrin Soldier have a bit higher Dex, AC, Ref and Init than a human Soldier? Or is the only difference in their powers?

The standard combat stats are derived almost entirely from level & role, not stats, so the basic answer is 'no'. The exception is hit points, which include monster CON. OTOH it is also standard to tweak the standard stats a bit to reflect a particular creature, eg you might give an Eladrin slightly higher Ref & Init and maybe AC, but in turn lower fortitude, maybe lower melee att/dmg, and a slightly lower CON >less hp than the standard array for that level.

 

[Primal]

The standard combat stats are derived almost entirely from level & role, not stats, so the basic answer is 'no'. The exception is hit points, which include monster CON. OTOH it is also standard to tweak the standard stats a bit to reflect a particular creature, eg you might give an Eladrin slightly higher Ref & Init and maybe AC, but in turn lower fortitude, maybe lower melee att/dmg, and a slightly lower CON >less hp than the standard array for that level.

But the ability scores for "official" monsters in MMs are simply derived from role and level, and race does not play any part; i.e. Eladrin does not get +2 to Int and Dex, and dwarf +2 to Con and Wis?

I know there are Class Templates, but I wonder if WoTC would consider Racial Templates as well (at least for the PC races) -- you would just calculate the base stats (role and level) and then apply both templates to get what you want.

 

[WayneLigon]

It just seems like a shame that my game that started in September of 1981 might have been killed by 4th

1. What were you using to run the game beforehand?
2. Why did you switch?
3. Why can't you just switch back?
4. What game were you playing previously where it was impossible to min-max characters (since it seems like this is a new problem for you)?

 

[catastrophic]

The OP sounds like classic burnout to me, the best thing would be if he took a break, the group played something else for a couple weeks (maybe not even an rpg), and he talked to the group about the powergaming issue and how it's causing him grief.

 

[lobsterGun]

...It just seems like a shame that my game that started in September of 1981 might have been killed by 4th

It sounds like your group is getting into a rut. Try mixing things up a bit.

-- When a group is really min maxed, they are usually min maxed for a specific environment. Throw some odd encounters at them - underwater action, encounters where they are hip deep in mud, encounters in a magic dead zone, zero gravity etc. Whatever you do, try to make it interesting.

-- Throw them into some role-playey situations. Give them incentives to find non-violent or creative solutions to encounters. Think Apocalypse Now, send them up river to assassinate a former ally who has lost his way, but when they get there they find he has amassed a small army and any direct attack will result in certain death.

-- Pick up some role playing aides. Maybe something like Whimsy Cards or Critical Hit Cards. They'll make things intereting. One of my old GMs used to let us buy "Quotes". He would write up something that sounded bad-ass and if you were able to work it into a role playing conversation whatever you were trying to do at that time was destined to succeed in a spectacular fashion. (He let us buy them with XP debt, but any method would work).

-- Explain to your group that 4th ed is bring you down switch back to 3.5 or to Pathfinder or 2nd edition or whatever. Keeping in mind the personalities of your players, you may want to identify some troublesome prestige classes and make them off limits when you do the conversion.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Ok Ive run my group to 14th and Im starting to realize-Im not sure if I want to continue.I feel like I am spending WAY more time in GM prep and not sure Im getting my value out of all the time I am spending.It also doesent help that one of my players has min-maxed the group and kind of needs to explaine to them how to play thier maximized characters.Add to this,I dont really have a fall back game to run(as I was never that excited about3-3.5).I kinda think my solution is to go to an OD&D clone but Im not sure my players would want that.

It just seems like a shame that my game that started in September of 1981 might have been killed by 4th

For Min / Max, that is a problem in many editions. About the only thing to do here is to either deal with it out of character (ie, ask them not to try to over do the mechanical optimization), or to treat your 5th level group like an 8th level group (or however much higher you need to take it).

Now, you say that you feel like you cannot just 'wing it' in 4th Edition. What I want to know is what elements of the game did you previously make up as you went along? Were you just pulling combat encounters out of your but? Treasure composition? Story / Plot elements?

Knowing what you prefer to make up and what you prefer to prepare in advance would probably get you alot more potentially useful advice.

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