4e Buyers remorse

[TheNovaLord]

I gave up on 4e after about 6 months, but it was a very easy prep-time / wing it kind of system, so i am most surprised by the OP

with combats taking up quite a lot of session time i found it very easy to fill in the blanks in between and link it all together on the fly.

Plus: i never found campaign 'upgrading' to a new system to work real well. it always seems to loose something

 

[Cyronax]

Its hard to know all the features of your campaign or your group. BUT ... it sounds like there is an antagonistic vibe coming from that player. Does this player min-max the group in order to 'save' them from what he or she see as DM fiat? Rightly or wrongly I've gamed with people who see the DM role to be the 'enemy.'

I could easily see how 4e (more so than 3.x) could let a min-maxer control freak slow down the pace of a session. The game is all about entering 'an encounter.' Now however that concept plays out on your table could vary, but does this particular player min-max and lead the party into situations where they can get their full suite of at-will, daily, but mainly encounter powers?

Its been said several times here, but talking to your group maturely about the subject is the way to go, IMO.

When I DM, I tend to keep it fast and loose and will handwave combats that are beneath the current level of the party. In a recent adventure that had the party conducting a full day of multiple encounters, I simply said that they waded through several score of minions and I had them deduct a surge or two. It is a little 'fiat-ish' but it saved valuable time (probably about an hour real time) and I was able to move them out-out-of-game towards the climactic (and very long and complex) battle with the BBEG.

As to DM Prep time, my work load has totally decreased. It was a very noticeable decrease for the first year of 4e (compared to 3.X), but come last August I found the WotC Adventure Tools - Monster Builder. That program -- so much more than the Compendium (which is also great) -- made DMing so much more fun. I also was better able to understand the rules behind monsters ... which really helped me DM.

C.I.D.

 

[conanb]

Hmm - it seems to me that if you have the broad outlines sketched, then monster types and terrain elements should be naturally emergent properties of the setting. You know there's a bandit camp in the woods, so if the PCs go there you use the Human Bandit stats for baseline banits, maybe some Human Rabble minions to bulk out a large group if the PCs are low-level; likewise Human Lackeys if they're higher level. For the big brute bandit, use Human Berserker. For the bandit leader, Half-Elf Bandit Captain or maybe Human Noble from MM-2 work well. The Half-Orcs in MM2 make for nice lieutenants/bodyguards. Want a spellcaster? MM Human Mage, or MM2 Half-Orc Death Mage.

For setting elements, sketch some tents on the battlemat, with a campfire, maybe tent-ropes to trip over. Maybe a stream. Some trees to hide behind. An area of thorn bush, or boggy ground. The occasional cliff to fall over. Whatever feels right - I like to use Paizo flip-mats a lot, the pre-drawn ones provide a lot of inspiration. Dungeon Tiles are not good for winging it, too fidddly - but I guess you could grab a couple random ones and see what you get, then stick them on the battlemat.

After the fight, add up the XP for the bandits, and give to PCs. Voila.

But see in my game the players may or may not ever go there. Sure there is a bandit camp in the woods, but my players might go fight them directly, lay a trap, skip them and hire someone else to fight them and continue searching for the mystical key, decide to do none of that and attack the merchant across the street. I feel that the point of a tabletop RPG is for players to do whatever they think their characters would do. And although there may be bandits in the woods, I would say that my group might go stop them only 50% of the time.

I suppose that goes along with my view of what a DM is. I am referree of their actions. I interpret the consequences of their choices and the effect those have on the world. Yes there is usually a greater story going on, but choosing not to participate in that story is a valid choice for how that story rolls forward. If the players choose not do anything about the bandits, then they're attacks on the local village continue unabated. Perhaps then the evil sorceror will have his plan to take over the land move one step forward unopposed. Either way I leave it in my player's hands to decide and take part in the world.

 

[Nifft]

The reason prep time is increaced is-
1)I was a huge just wing it guy and really dont think that belongs in 4e
2)when I say this group is min-maxed-I mean it.,

In my experience, winging it totally works with 4e, but you need to be familiar with the system. Learning a new system is certainly more work than using a system you already know, but it can be worth it.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Agreed

I've never DMed 4E, but from what I see it looks like winging it would be substantially easier than 3E, due to the monster builder and the clearly defined monster roles.

Ken

 

[Fanaelialae]

You could try winging it in 4e. I've had good success with it in the past, something I admittedly never really managed in 3e. YMMV, of course.

The simplest method is simply to select 5-10 level appropriate creatures from the MM and then reskin as necessary/desired. Even minor changes, such as raising Fortitude by 2 and dropping Reflex by the same, can have a significant effect on how the players perceive a creature. You could use the above to reskin a wolf into a crocodile by simply adding a swim speed and changing the description. Instead of describing wolf pack tactics, you have a pair of crocs fighting over their prey (to the same effect). If you want to get fancy, when one croc knocks the player prone have the other grab him and attempt to drag him under next round. You could even make the grab attack an at-will that deals damage on the fly.

Terrain is easy to make up if you're used to winging it, IME. Presumably, you already have experience doing this in earlier editions. Just toss out whatever you deem appropriate to the scenario, and sooner than later you should get a feel for what works well and what doesn't. Just don't get discouraged if you occasionally make a mistake. You can use the values on page 42 if you need an appropriate damage range.

If you really want to wing it, what you could do (rather than reskinning) is use DMG pages 184-185. For example, if your players are level 5, you could just jot down the following:

Init: +6
HP: 63 (Bloodied 31)
AC: 19
NADs: 17
Att vs AC: +10
Att vs NAD: +8
Dmg: 1d6+4 - 2d8+4/ Limited: 3d6+4 - 3d10+4
Ability mod./ Skill (Untrained): +4

That's a rough sketch of a level 5 skirmisher (I consider skirmishers the most average of roles). You now have a template for creating almost any kind of level 5 creature you can imagine, just tweak the numbers as needed. For example, double hp when creating an elite, or quadruple for a solo. Soldiers get +2 to attack rolls vs AC and AC def. And so forth...

 

[Imaro]

Two problems, off the top of my head, I have with winging encounters in 4e...

The 1st one is that there aren't any base, run-of-the-mill creatures. I mean if I just want a bunch of Goblin thugs in 3e I flipped to a run of the mill Goblin and only had to deal with one set of stats. Give them all ranged and melee weapons and I'm set. No memorization of unique powers, give them all the same hit points, they all have the same AC, etc. Then if I need a specialized Goblin I used a different stat block or designed it myself.

In 4e I feel like I have to decide if each one (in an off the cuff encounter) is a Goblin Warrior, Goblin Blackblade, Goblin Sharphshooter, and so on. Each of these has at least one or more unique powers which I must keep track of, varying hit points, AC, and so on. Now I also have to consider the makeup of present roles in my party, or this inconsequential encounter could prove way harder or way easier than I anticipated. Now I guess alot of people will say just use minions, but in my experience a fight of just minions is rarely exciting or even worth it, I like them as back up but not as center pieces.

My 2nd problem is that the monsters have different powers... and as of yet there isn't anyway to create original powers in a balanced or formulaic structure for antagonists of a certain power level (unless of course you just want them to do damage... then you can just use page 42.). The problem is that hardly any monsters only do damage... it's boring and makes for a pretty uninteresting fight.

Note: Perhaps the Monster Builder allows you to do this, but then if I am creating monsters in the Monster Builder... it's not exactly "winging" it is it? Also electronic tools should not be assumed, they're suppose to be optional add-on's so I think it's a little disingenuous when they are stated as the reason 4e is easier to wing it.

Note Also: I do find 4e easier to prep out ahead of time... just not easier to wing off the cuff with for some reason... might just be how my mind works since I have the same problem with the multitude of conditions, marking, etc. that fly back and forth in any given encounter.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I think when winging it, you just have to accept that the game won't be quite as balanced as if you'd prepped. Winging it and perfect balance don't really go hand-in-hand.

That said, I don't think it's too difficult to ballpark a power's effectiveness. If you make a mistake and it turns out that the power is a little too good, odds are that the PCs will still emerge victorious, just with less dailies and/or surges than they'd have had otherwise. Take it easy on them in the next encounter and things should balance out.

As for the issue with goblins, just pick two and go. Skirmishers backed by artillery is a simple but effective combination, so toss a few Warriors and Sharpshooters into the mix and have at it. I've found one of the most important rules when running an impromptu game is not to let yourself get bogged down in minutiae. Don't sweat the small stuff. If it doesn't work out, there will be plenty of other encounters for you to get it right.

 

[Jack99]

I don't know about you but I'm pulling out of D&D completely. I might be a player but I'm getting rid of all my 4e stuff and going with Fantasy Craft for my go to d20 fantasy game... 4e, while fun, is just becoming more of the same...and I mean more of the same regarding the crunch, massive gloat of feats, classes, races, etc, etc, etc...

And the future only looks like its going to get worse, and I can't keep up, so I'm done with it.

Just not for me anymore. It just takes to long for me to prepare encounters, because i have to cater to 4 distinct roles in the group, and I have to examine the different types of monsters and how they play and how they fit into groups, and its just way to much.

So are you a player or a DM, because I must admit that I find your post a bit confusing. With that said, why not just choose which books you want to play with and leave it at that, instead of switching games? This assumes you like 4e, of course.

 

[Imaro]

So are you a player or a DM, because I must admit that I find your post a bit confusing. With that said, why not just choose which books you want to play with and leave it at that, instead of switching games? This assumes you like 4e, of course.

I think she's saying she might be willing to play 4e but doesn't want to run it anymore.