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4e Clone − help create it!

Yaarel

Explorer
This is the advantage of using a common general structure.

Dailies: some maneuvers are only rarely likely to occur in this case rare means once a day which one might think of as about as often as a critical hit. Now you get it reliably as a player tactical choice because fate likes heroes and OR perhaps the character can put special effort into it and in the process straining the muscle that lets them do that superhuman leap and which recovers after a long rest (or whatever). The details vary by ability somewhat like the Tricks and so on mentioned earlier for encounter abilities.

Not only casters can do big climactic moves when their player wants if you are modelling 4e
In 4e, most of the Dailies for Warlord are simply the mechanism for dealing more multiples of weapon damage. In other words, low-level Dailies are moreorless indistinguishable from high-level Encounters.

When translating into 5e, both Dailies and Encounters go into the same pool. The damage is handled separately because in 5e the damage scales automatically by means of Extra Attacks. Really, the 5e cantrips should have been handled the same way, with the Wizard gaining extra cantrip attacks at certain levels, instead of the auto-scaling. When the Fighter uses a cantrip, and here when the Knight/Warlord does, the cantrips are a normal attack that can be used per-turn, and the Knight applies the Extra Attack feature instead of the auto-scaling.

In 5e, a Fighter − including this Knight/Warlord archetype − goes ‘nova’ by spending action surges that can multiply the extra attacks.

So because damage-dealing is handled separately, the benefits of 4e Warlord powers are mainly granting actions to allies, plus powers that relate to move for allies, barrier against enemies, healing of morale, and detection. Some powers improve hit accuracy and add-or damage bonus.

Because of the nature of these powers, the Knight/Warlord maneuvers tend to be just as useful at high levels as they are at low levels. Very few powers need to be withheld until a higher level prerequisite. Most work fine in a way that is balanced at low levels, and continue to scale well becoming more potent in combo with other abilities yet still balancing at high levels.

Most of the time, in 5e, the ‘Daily’ power is moreorless the same thing as spending an action surge.

If there are any 4e powers whose significant effects need a translation into 5e, mention it.
 
In 4e, most of the Dailies for Warlord are simply the mechanism for dealing more multiples of weapon damage. In other words, low-level Dailies are moreorless indistinguishable from high-level Encounters.
Hardly. Some of 'em didn't do damage, at all. Many the damage is hardly the point, just a Martial Thang, a little differentiation that's as much feel as anything, secondary to supporting allies.

I get a lot of use out of Warlord's Recovery, for instance.

When translating into 5e, both Dailies and Encounters go into the same pool.
5e /has/ long & short rest 'pools,' though I agree that the latter is /not/ equivalent to Encounters.

It might be more in keeping with the 5e design ethos to define martial maneuvers entirely differently from the 'rest' pacing. Maneuvers could have a limit to usage based on whether the target has seen them before (this fight, or /ever/, for instance, for an Encounter/Daily divide), instead of how rested the character is.

In 5e, a Fighter − including this Knight/Warlord archetype − goes ‘nova’ by spending action surges that can multiply the extra attacks.
Which is one reason the Warlord doesn't work as an archetype, to 5e Fighter is too deeply committed to all-DPR, all the time.

Because of the nature of these powers, the Knight/Warlord maneuvers tend to be just as useful at high levels as they are at low levels. Very few powers need to be withheld until a higher level prerequisite.
Off on a basic level, IMHO. If you can't think of high-level abilities a class should have, you don't have a handle on the class, yet, and you won't create a viable class, but another LF to be overshadowed by all the Qw's in 5e.
 

Zardnaar

Adventurer
Come and Get it's effects can also be redonevas magical in nature since in 5E you have a magical fighter.

If you want a non magical/psionic version people will continue mocking it as every enemy it gets used on is an idiot. If you like that sort of thing it's fine, but that's why people laugh at it.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
If you want a non magical/psionic version people will continue mocking it as every enemy it gets used on is an idiot.
Yeh no its a combination mocking and trick where enemies see an apparently easy opening
for a melee attack and are already damn near on top of you (10 bloody feat) oh my oh my how magical ... sigh
 
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Zardnaar

Adventurer
Yeh no its a combination mocking and trick where enemies see an apparently easy opening
for a melee attack and are already damn near on top of you (15 bloody feat) oh my oh my how magical ... sigh
Stick that ability on NPCs and start using it on PCs every combat. See if if you have any players left after a month or two.

Forced anything in D&D no save doesn't tend to go down well. Minor damage maybe like magic missile.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Some peoples idea of what makes something magical is either somewhere out there with the childhood card tricks or simply in the fighters cannot have nice things except damage and more damage category.

Oh and should I be bothered by the mocking of those types?
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Stick that ability on NPCs and start using it on PCs every combat.
Ah you take the NPCs personally dont you... how much does it bother you when they die?

The ability is not something easily repeatable and in practice its not likely to be used against the same enemies more than once. In 5e terms its about something you might be able to do once a short rest at 9th level.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Right make it a lightning leash from a mage and you wouldn't blink twice but a very convincing trick and bring on the whine with all the trimmings.

Not going to mention they changed it to address whiners and made it an attack against will before the move (a change which made it more powerful according to some Char op folk but is predictable in ad better at dealing damage sort of way)
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
@Zardnaar

Sorry about letting my stress get to me. I do think that realizing the answer to 4e fans is not deciding martial cannot do unlikely things is very important if you are trying to do a 4e quasi clone. And that is all a halfway reliable trick is slightly unlikely its the privilege of advancing your hero AND high level things are not going to be appropriate unless that happens. A stealthy character using the right encounter skill power can literally remain invisible (hidden in plain sight) even while firing off crossbow bolts in mid-paragon.
 
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Zardnaar

Adventurer
Right make it a lightning leash from a mage and you wouldn't blink twice but a very convincing trick and bring on the whine with all the trimmings.

Not going to mention they changed it to address whiners and made it an attack against will before the move (a change which made it more powerful according to some Char op folk but is predictable in ad better at dealing damage sort of way)
Lightning leash makes sense in a D&D world.

In world's where supernatural abilities exist it's no big deal if people use psionics, magic, the force etc.

It's an unavoidable mundane effect which is the problem. As I said if you like that sort of thing it's fine but that's why it gets mocked.

A flaming sword is no big deal in D&D land.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
It's an unavoidable mundane effect which is the problem.
Yes in making the move after the attack made it more powerful more likely to kill a party after you gave it to every NPC because you are such a sweet person and think your NPCs are precious
and cannot be tricked by mere mundanes only godling mages get that.

The swordmage could have a lightning leash and explicitly have it target reflexes instead of will.

I also like Warlords whose inspiration enables the heroes to recover hit points in a way that they do not go away and leave the subject dying afterwards. I even like that it is a surgical choice.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
If your D&D is a magical world where the fighter or rogue or warlord is intrinsically boringly unable to trick enemies in halfway reliable ways (cause that is all it was originally half way reliable) then I think 5e already does that...
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
There is a Warlords warning shout that enables you to help an ally out of the area of an attack as a reaction. Rather like a perfect saving throw.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I get a lot of use out of Warlord's Recovery, for instance.
Oh yes a very sweet trick I think it would involve granting an ally one of your superiority dice oror if there was a daily resource spent you and the ally get one more ... heck it could be even broader effect than that the ally could be situationally able to use any of your maneuvers

5e /has/ long & short rest 'pools,' though I agree that the latter is /not/ equivalent to Encounters.
It might be more in keeping with the 5e design ethos to define martial maneuvers entirely differently from the 'rest' pacing. Maneuvers could have a limit to usage based on whether the target has seen them before (this fight, or /ever/, for instance, for an Encounter/Daily divide), instead of how rested the character is.
This yes

Which is one reason the Warlord doesn't work as an archetype, to 5e Fighter is too deeply committed to all-DPR, all the time.

Off on a basic level, IMHO. If you can't think of high-level abilities a class should have, you don't have a handle on the class, yet, and you won't create a viable class, but another LF to be overshadowed by all the Qw's in 5e.
unfortunately possible
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
TacticalWithdrawal.pngTacticalReposition.png

I think abilities that potentially affect/enable
the whole party are meat and drink for a warlord

not seeing the Battlemaster really having any of those.
 

Yaarel

Explorer
Which is one reason the Warlord doesn't work as an archetype, to 5e Fighter is too deeply committed to all-DPR, all the time.

Off on a basic level, IMHO. If you can't think of high-level abilities a class should have, you don't have a handle on the class, yet, and you won't create a viable class, but another LF to be overshadowed by all the Qw's in 5e.
It seems to me, the Fighter is a great chassis for the Knight/Warlord. The Fighter has so much ‘uncluttered’ design space. Because the Fighter base design space guarantees excellent damage dealing, the design space for the archetype can focus exclusively group enhancement capabilities.



@Zardnaar, @Garthanos,

I found it easy to translate Come and Get It, into a 5e format and sensibility. It is also an example of how there is little difference between 4e Encounters and 4e Dailies.



Taunting Strike // Barrier Attack 3
Worldly Mind, Intimidation // Action
Target: foes in close
Versus: your Charisma versus each foes Charisma
Hit: Barrier: each foe moves into melee
Target: foes in melee
Attack: your per-turn attack
You taunt your foes, goading them to come attack you. When they reach you, you bust out to punish each of them. Each hostile in close range (30 feet) who can see or hear you must make a Charisma defense, or as a reaction move toward you, adjacent within melee range (5 feet) if able. Then you make one per-turn attack (such as using a weapon or a cantrip) against each hostile in melee.
[Compare 4e Come and Get It PH1]
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I found it easy to translate Come and Get It, into a 5e format and sensibility. It is also an example of how there is little difference between 4e Encounters and 4e Dailies.
It is a 4e encounter just a pretty cool one sorry you were asking for dailies and my brain skipped.

Taunting Strike // Barrier Attack 3
Worldly Mind, Intimidation // Action
Target: foes in close
Versus: your Charisma versus each foes Charisma
Hit: each foe moves into melee
Target: foes in melee
Attack: per-turn attack
You taunt your foes, goading them to come attack you. When they reach you, you bust out to punish each of them. Each hostile in close range (30 feet) who can see or hear you must make a Charisma defense, or as a reaction move toward you, adjacent within melee range (5 feet) if able. Then you make one per-turn attack (such as weapon or cantrip) against each hostile in melee.
[Compare 4e Come and Get It PH1]

Note since Charisma is at best a secondary attribute for the fighter or even worse if you want it to be at all effective it is likely Charisma + 2 or 3 even that and/or a proficiency bonus (not sure) especially since you made it a roll for every every taunting - they smashed it together in 4e both to simplify and avoid problems like .1/2chance x 1/2 chance to taunt = 1/4, or even 2/3 chance to hit x 2/3 chance to taunt... is 4/9

Its very easy to hide cool stuff behind a barrier of over dicing them.

Basically that is a fine tuning error not saying it cannot be done though

(the three referencing approximate spell level right?)
 
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