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4e Clone − help create it!

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The term ‘encounter’ is a normal 5e term. By itself, it refers to anything the adventuring party meets.

But the term ‘combat encounter’ specifically refers to ‘a clash between two sides’, organizing into a ‘cycle of rounds and turns’ that begins ‘when everyone rolls initiative’ (PH 189).

So, it seems appropriate to refer to these powers as ‘per combat encounter’, abbreviated ‘• combat’:
They could be used outside of combat too. That mighty leap and scrambling climb even though level 2 come in handy


To be honest I was playing the lets popup the verisimilitude angle with this we could call them per encounter.

Martial Tricks this cannot be applied to anyone who has seen it recently (z-man came up with better [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]verbiage[/FONT] for it)
Druids or Environment Straining casters your magics require a scene change to refresh.
Clerics/Warlocks you require a short 1 minute re-tainting or purification ritual to clear your spirit (a potion might allow this once in a while for a cost)
Paladins recover by defeating bad guys after every fight because you are serving your god that way
 
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Yaarel

Explorer
Authority/social-position is one of the many thing that raises some hackles about the class.
My intention is for the ‘Skill’ levels to be highly impacting to define the out-of-combat identity of a player character. The class levels themselves will not handle skills, except for one inherent musthave skill (Fighter Athletics, Wizard Arcana, Rogue Stealth, etcetera).

So the Knight/Warlord class description will suggest typical livelihoods/backgrounds, such as ‘Noble’ for a highborn Knight, but also ‘Farmer’ for a rags-to-riches Knight, and ‘Grey Elf Griffon Rider’ for a nonhuman Knight/Warlord. And so on. But players can choose whatever livelihood they wish.

Each livelihood defines the skill set (probably three or four skills) along with a special noncombat privilege or capability.

Importantly, the livelihood defines the identity of the character outside of combat. Especially, the player is encouraged to decide the central persons and places that the character bonds with, such as a mentor or school, or noble family, or remote farm, alchemist shoppe, armorer smith, wilderness hunter and tracker, or whoever or wherever, that seems appropriate for a level 1 character to have affinity with.

Each skill will think more clearly about how it can be used in combat and out of combat. For example, the History skill in the sense of military history, should be able to identify combat vulnerabilities among humanoids, similar to how Nature can among natural creatures, and Arcana can among extraplanar creatures. Arcana can as a ritual detect the presence of magic. I would use it for identifying a magic item, even tho in 5e this is automatic during a short rest. Medicine needs to explicitly detect disease and poison. And so on. These ‘Worldly’ skills work well when they are impactful, with multiple examples of how to use them.

Skills and their livelihood are important, especially in settings where combats are less frequent.

Players are encouraged to think about how the respective livelihoods got their characters to meet each other and eventually venture out together.

The reason I am saying ‘livelihood’ rather than ‘background’ is because the skill set is ongoing and advances while leveling. At higher levels, the skill levels allow the player characters to gather a cohort (family members, students, hirelings, soldiers) and so on.
 

Yaarel

Explorer
They could be used outside of combat too. That mighty leap and scrambling climb even though level 2 come in handy.

To be honest I was playing the lets popup the verisimilitude angle with this we could call them per encounter.
Yeah. If the powers can be used in *any* encounter, including combat, social, and exploration, then it seems fine to call these ‘per encounter’ powers, according to normal 5e terminology.

To me, the word ‘power’ connotes ‘superpower’. I am happy with this as an all-purpose term. At the same time, to be more diplomatic, I feel it helps to emphasize the nonmagic aspects of such powers. So there are nonmagical ‘capabilities’ versus magical ‘spells’, and nonmagical ‘maneuvers’ versus magical ‘cantrips’.



Martial Tricks this cannot be applied to anyone who has seen it recently (z-man came up with better verbiage for it)
Druids or Environment Straining casters your magics require a scene change to refresh.
Clerics/Warlocks you require a short 1 minute re-tainting or purification ritual to clear your spirit (a potion might allow this once in a while for a cost)
Paladins recover by defeating bad guys after every fight because you are serving your god that way
Personally, I dont see much difference between ‘per encounter’ and ‘per rest’. Besides being able to use a power in two encounters in a row, why does it matter? Even if per rest, a party can often rest after each encounter if necessary.



In any case, it seems to me possible, that class can have both per-encounter and per-rest capabilities. The per-rest ones connote a flavor of exhaustion and recovery. The per-encounter ones connote exploiting a circumstantial opportunity.



In this case, it helps for the description to specify what that circumstantial opportunity is. In the case of a trick, the foes dont expect it. In this case, targeting Intelligence helps to convey this flavor.



Unfortunately, only the nonmagical ‘Worldly’ capabilities require careful rationalization via mechanics and flavor.

Magical spells have no problem being ‘per encounter’. For spontaneous magic (Norse, etcetera), the caster must be in the ‘moment’, and when the moment changes so must the mental focus of the caster. For ritualistic magic (Hellenistic, etcetera), specific times and places can be part of the ‘magical ingredients’, so the actual casting is slightly different each time.

4e allowed the player to narrate the reactions of the targets in impromptu way − that made sense at that specific moment. But in 5e, the capability needs to specify the flavor of what exactly happens to the targets, routinely in every encounter.
 

Yaarel

Explorer
For what it is worth, the 5e Players Handbook explicitly allows a ‘feint’ to happen, no-save, no-narrative requirement. The Help action hand waives any details, for the mechanical ability to grant advantage to an ally for the next combat attack.

The 5e Help action seems very warlordy to me.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Personally, I dont see much difference between ‘per encounter’ and ‘per rest’. Besides being able to use a power in two encounters in a row, why does it matter? Even if per rest, a party can often rest after each encounter if necessary.
A short rest in 5e is a 1 hour thing and very limited how often you can do it... ie its not like per encounter - though I know 4e players who treat it the same.

In general, over the course of a full adventuring day, the party will likely need to take two short rests, about one-third and two-thirds of the way through the day. (Basic Rules, DM, p. 57)

Its basically lunch and supper breaks
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
In any case, it seems to me possible, that class can have both per-encounter and per-rest capabilities. The per-rest ones connote a flavor of exhaustion and recovery. The per-encounter ones connote exploiting a circumstantial opportunity.

In this case, it helps for the description to specify what that circumstantial opportunity is. In the case of a trick, the foes dont expect it. In this case, targeting Intelligence helps to convey this flavor.
Totally the above

Unfortunately, only the nonmagical ‘Worldly’ capabilities require careful rationalization via mechanics and flavor.
makes me go hmmmmmm

Magical spells have no problem being ‘per encounter’. For spontaneous magic (Norse, etcetera), the caster must be in the ‘moment’, and when the moment changes so must the mental focus of the caster. For ritualistic magic (Hellenistic, etcetera), specific times and places can be part of the ‘magical ingredients’, so the actual casting is slightly different each time.

4e allowed the player to narrate the reactions of the targets in impromptu way − that made sense at that specific moment. But in 5e, the capability needs to specify the flavor of what exactly happens to the targets, routinely in every encounter.
Also hmmmmmm
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
For what it is worth, the 5e Players Handbook explicitly allows a ‘feint’ to happen, no-save, no-narrative requirement. The Help action hand waives any details, for the mechanical ability to grant advantage to an ally for the next combat attack. .
Spent every single multi-attack for that now did you ?
 

Yaarel

Explorer
A short rest in 5e is a 1 hour thing and very limited how often you can do it... ie its not like per encounter - though I know 4e players who treat it the same.

In general, over the course of a full adventuring day, the party will likely need to take two short rests, about one-third and two-thirds of the way through the day. (Basic Rules, DM, p. 57)

Its basically lunch and supper breaks
A meal (lunch or supper) is a great way to concretize a short rest.



Even by the 5e description. If there are normally six encounters per day, that means there will be two encounters per short rest. How is ‘per encounter’ significantly different from ‘per rest’.

Eight encounters per day is rare. In my experience, from one to four encounters per day is typical. So, a short rest seems equivalent to me.
 

Yaarel

Explorer
Spent every single multi-attack for that now did you ?
I mean, the rationale is the same one that Warlord powers use. This ‘feint’ rationalizes the granting of the advantage mechanic. The Help action is defacto a martial maneuver at-will, even if a basic one.

It is even a ‘trick’, that automatically succeeds without any save versus a Deception skill check. The mechanics just happen, and the player or DM may or may not bother to narrate it.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I mean, the rationale is the same one that Warlord powers use. This ‘feint’ rationalizes the granting of the advantage mechanic. The Help action is defacto a martial maneuver at-will, even if a basic one.
Sure its directly related to fighting next to someone and distracting their enemy so they get a better chance at hitting.

The warlord however needs his help action to be at range probably 50 feet ... he can distract an enemy and point out openings using mad tactical skills may not even need to communicate them he just manipulated the scene.

The point I was making though as a fighter class character like the Battlemaster unless you are unable to reach an enemy or the ally is a rogue with some VERY serious bapem ... you do not want to spend an action on this cause you got your own serious bapem and high chances of that working... not much at all is gained.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Battlemaster ... the distracting strike does the help action but you can attack hard while doing it.

Distracting Strike
[FONT=&quot]When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to distract the creature, giving your allies an opening. You add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll. The next attack roll against the target by an attacker other than you has advantage if the attack is made before the start of your next turn.[/FONT]
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
One of my solutions to the battlemaster not having at-wills is to allow what I call skilled superiority

Skilled Superiority
forego one of your attacks and make a Wisdom(Insight), Intelligence(Investigate) or Charisma (Deception/Intimidation/Persuasion) check if you succeed you may add the attribute bonus to the damage of and treat the following attack as though you spent a superiority die

It plus Battle Ready (which lets you base initiative on a mental attribute) and a yet to be made up Warlord Fighting style ... would step a Battlemaster closer to Warlord

Perhaps Leading Attacker any ally who attacks the one you just hit gets a bonus of +1 til your next turn.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Even by the 5e description. If there are normally six encounters per day, that means there will be two encounters per short rest.
Half as many uses double them so I always have one by game assumptions ... its encouraging I hit it with my sword and has no dailies for that same character

Not even at-wils for your fighter except the most boring one in 4e... ie twin strike
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
5e didnt just remove the Warlord ... they removed awesome.

No your fighter cannot do a come and get it.

AND will never get to
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
How about I want the larger than life paradigm back...

It was pointed out in D&D (sic) doing the impossible meant using a spell.

5e characters feel petty in comparison to 4e... even moderately levelled ones



  1. Heroic tier: Levels 1-10.
    • Characters may have impressive skills, but operate on a basically human level.
    • Adventures take place in local environments - dungeons, towns, forests.
    • Threats are mostly part of the local ecology, or summoned or created. (Natural creatures, other sapient species, created mechanisms, plants.)
  2. Paragon tier: Levels 11-20
    • Characters now have extreme, near-superhuman levels of their lead skills. They can accomplish things no ordinary human could (and make very difficult skill DC rolls!)
    • Adventures take place in a wider arena. They may save entire kingdoms, not just local villages. Their growing reputations will make them major players, even if birth and rank don't. They might lead guilds, be involved in court politics, or command soldiers.
    • Enemies also exist on a larger scale. Extraplanar threats become more common, and less likely to have to be summoned first. Players may meet dragons, invading warlords (and their armies), elemental or demonic creatures, colossal magical beasts.
    • Characters gain powers from a 'paragon class' - a development of the 'prestige class' idea from D&D 3e. The paragon class gives tightly-focused powers related to a specific concept of how to play the character's main class. (For example: A druid who specialises in driving animals berserk. A warlock who steals life from opponents. A barbarian who becomes more and more like a bear.)
  3. Epic tier: Levels 21-30
    • Characters can accomplish awesome and impossible things with skills alone, before they even bother to use their class powers. Which are increasingly powerful.
    • Adventures are routinely extra-planar - if the characters even make their homes on their original world any more - and threats are ancient dragons, powerful planar entities, titans, or the like. Entire worlds or areas of existence may be at stake.
    • Each character progresses towards an 'epic destiny' - chosen by the player at L21. They gradually gain extra powers appropriate to this destined ending. (For example: becoming a god, or a transcendent energy-entity, or a heroic legend, or an immortal traveller.)


      Doing the impossible with skills alone were on the list.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
At high levels if you look at skill checks you can decently hit difficulties that were literally impossible before ie the mechanics back up the flavor of the tiers elegantly.
 

Tony Vargas

Adventurer
The 5e Help action seems very warlordy to me.
The 'Aid Another' action goes back to 3e, when it gave a simple +2.

I played two 3e character who were, in retrospect, trying, unsuccessfully, to be Warlords. One was a Paladin diplomancer who prioritized CHA, in combat, he would sometimes trundle into a flanking position and use Aid Another so his Dwarf Fighter ally could throw a few more BAB to his Power Attack.

How is ‘per encounter’ significantly different from ‘per rest’.
It's more absolute? If you roll initiative, anything that's 'per encounter' is available. If you rest 5 min to get back an ability, you'll /usually/ have it in each encounter, but sometimes you may be time pressured to the point that even 5 minutes is too long. If it takes an hour, there will frequently be time-important situations where you will have two or more encounters in a row without re-charging.

Seems pretty significant.
 

Yaarel

Explorer
[MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION]

I am mulling three rest types.

• sleep (8-hour long rest)
• meal (1-hour short rest)
• breather (15-minute brief rest)

The breather matters because it is the standard unit of time to perform a magical ritual. (I like a 15-minute unit over 10, because there are about one hundred of them per day: 14 minutes and 24 seconds.) Also, 15-minute breather feels like a more useful time space to get something done. It is enough time to bandage wounds, explore a room, eat something on the run, regather ones wits, and so on.

I am unsure what restorative benefit to assign to the pause. Short rest can spend hit dice, long rest refreshes all hit points and hit dice.

Re 4e: an ‘action per breather’ can approximate an encounter power. And it comes with its own narrative explanation. The capability is exerting and requires one to catch ones breath before doing it (effectively) again.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
@Garthanos

I am mulling three rest types.

• sleep (8-hour long rest)
• meal (1-hour short rest)
• breather (15-minute brief rest)

The breather matters because it is the standard unit of time to perform a magical ritual. (I like a 15-minute unit over 10, because there are about one hundred of them per day: 14 minutes and 24 seconds.) Also, 15-minute breather feels like a more useful time space to get something done. It is enough time to bandage wounds, explore a room, eat something on the run, regather ones wits, and so on.

I am unsure what restorative benefit to assign to the pause. Short rest can spend hit dice, long rest refreshes all hit points and hit dice.

Re 4e: an ‘action per breather’ can approximate an encounter power. And it comes with its own narrative explanation. The capability is exerting and requires one to catch ones breath before doing it (effectively) again.
A fight takes such a short amount of time that I often compared it to a short run... like even a 6 hundred yards dash... its a little more than a minute and you spend it pretty much full exertion like fighting for ones life.

You can recover relatively quickly though there are a maximum real people can do in a day... that is probably not true for someone who is a nascent demigod or less grandiose sounding read Tolkien, Legolas/Gimli/Aragorn.
 

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