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4e Clone − help create it!

Yaarel

Explorer
This capability compares to the 4e Come and Get It encounter power.

Here level ‘3’ is roughly comparable to a slot-level 2 spell. A 5e Eldritch Knight would get this at level 7. It is the kind of capability that improves while leveling, because the weapon attack itself inherently improves while leveling. Eventually, my intention is to divide all spells by class level, so Fireball is a class level 5 spell (or higher), then gauge all powers according to these rankings.

‘Barrier’ means to control or deny hostiles movement.

‘Per breather’. This power is not so much a ‘trick’. It simply seeks to piss enemies off. The ‘Intimidation’ category includes taunting, distracting, and confusing. The ‘bust out’ to attack each hostile seems a physical exertion. So a breather reasonably helps before pulling the same stunt again. The effect mainly involves Mind in the sense of manipulating emotions, but could also mention Life in the sense of an explosive physical athletic exertion and Matter in the sense of weapon attacks.



Taunting Strike // Barrier Attack 3
Worldly Mind, Intimidation // action • breather
Target: foes in close
Versus: Charisma
Effect: each foe moves into melee
Attack: weapon
You taunt your foes, goading them to come attack you. When they reach you, you bust out to punish each of them. Each hostile in close range (30 feet) who can see or hear you must make a Charisma defense, or as a reaction move toward you, adjacent in melee range (5 feet), if able. Then you make a weapon attack against each hostile in melee.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Gilgamesh is another example also demi-god who explicitly ran for days without the rest gap presumedly. Hence why I think that martial practice is awesome but could be more so. Imagine being able to rest while physically active in some relativelly straight forward way like running ;)
 

Yaarel

Explorer
Gilgamesh is another example also demi-god who explicitly ran for days without the rest gap presumedly. Hence why I think that martial practice is awesome but could be more so. Imagine being able to rest while physically active in some relativelly straight forward way like running ;)
I like the idea the Novice tier (levels 0 to 4) being youth and normal people. Hero tier (5 to 12) being noticeably competent people. Master tier (13 to 20) the upper limits of human possibility. Immortal tier (21+) is effectively superhuman.
 
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Yaarel

Explorer
5e has nothing like martial practices
These are moreorless nonmagical rituals. Some of them are Athletic skill stunts, requiring a 15-minute rest to perform. I would also include the Medicine skill to slow down ones own heartbeat as a stunt, for example.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
These are moreorless nonmagical rituals. Some of them are Athletic skill stunts, requiring a 15-minute rest to perform. I would also include the Medicine skill to slow down ones own heartbeat as a stunt, for example.
Aside from time there is no cost to 5e rituals rituals you just need to know it. If a wizard gets ritual automagically there should be a martial class getting these too.

No feat cost.
 

Yaarel

Explorer
Aside from time there is no cost to 5e rituals rituals you just need to know it. If a wizard gets ritual automagically there should be a martial class getting these too.

No feat cost.


5e rituals are noncombat.

I am leaning toward allowing anyone to do these rituals using the Arcana skill. Difficulty depends on level, maybe something like 20 + spell level.

Likewise, anyone could do a nonmagical ritual using Athletics.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
5e rituals are noncombat.

I am leaning toward allowing anyone to do these rituals using the Arcana skill. Difficulty depends on level, maybe something like 20 + spell level.

Likewise, anyone could do a nonmagical ritual using Athletics.
That creates an interesting dynamic.

Most of the martial practices are not combat either if you have to spend 30 seconds on something it could be combat preparatory but mostly noncombat

Technically the 5e Inspirational Leaders could flavor wise very much be a martial practice
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I like the idea the Novice tier (levels 0 to 3) being youth and normal people. Hero tier (4 to 7) being noticeably competent people. Master tier (13 to 20) the upper limits of human possibility. Immortal tier (21+) is effectively superhuman.
The 5e tiers as currently explained is basically each 5 levels. If you look at 16 to 20 in 5e is it that far off? a level 16 mage do they feel less than a minor godling? in 4e terms they can cast as many rituals as they have time for and other perqs.
 

Yaarel

Explorer
The 5e tiers as currently explained is basically each 5 levels. If you look at 16 to 20 in 5e is it that far off? a level 16 mage do they feel less than a minor godling? in 4e terms they can cast as many rituals as they have time for and other perqs.
In 5e, the tiers are officially 1-4, 5-10, 11-16, 17-20. Level 5 is when the Wizard gets Fireball. Level 17 is when the Wizard gets Wish. But Level 11 is relatively uneventful. Slot 6 spells are less exciting. Level 11 feels arbitrary.

More meaningful to me is the Proficiency bonus, where it quantifies real advancement in capability. So, the real tiers are 0-0, 1-4, 5-8, 9-12, 13-16, 17-20, 21+. If you designed an adventure for characters whose levels are within the range of one of these units, it would work well.

I like the way these units can group as Novice 0-4, Hero 5-12, Master 13-20, Immortal 21+.

The Master tier needs more oomph to initiate it at level 13. Among slot 7 Wizard spells, Simulacrum is good, but less tier defining.

But the high Master tier (17-20) has oomph and dabbles in the impossible. It feels ‘legendary’, yet not yet ‘epic’ or ‘Immortal’.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
This capability compares to the 4e Come and Get It encounter power. (I need a new name for it.)

Here level ‘3’ is roughly comparable to a slot-level 2 spell. A 5e Eldritch Knight would get this at level 7. It is the kind of capability that improves while leveling, because the weapon attack itself inherently improves while leveling. Eventually, my intention is to divide all spells by class level, so Fireball is a class level 5 spell (or higher), then gauge all powers according to these rankings.

‘Barrier’ means to control or deny hostiles movement.

‘Per breather’. This power is not so much a ‘trick’. It simply seeks to piss enemies off. The ‘Intimidation’ category includes taunting, distracting, and confusing. The ‘bust out’ to attack each hostile seems a physical exertion. So a breather reasonably helps before pulling the same stunt again. The effect mainly involves Mind in the sense of manipulating emotions, but could also mention Life in the sense of an explosive physical athletic exertion and Matter in the sense of weapon attacks.



Come and Get It // Barrier Attack 3
Worldly Mind, Intimidation // action • breather
Target: foes in close
Versus: Charisma
Effect: each foe moves into melee
Attack: weapon
You taunt your foes, goading them to come attack you. When they reach you, you bust out to punish each of them. Each hostile in close range (30 feet) who can see or hear you must make a Charisma defense, or as a reaction move toward you, adjacent in melee range (5 feet) if able. Then you make a weapon attack against each hostile in melee.
Call it Drawing Taunt or Taunting Strike and make the range for it scale so when its used by Epic hero it starts to feel epic
 

Yaarel

Explorer
Call it Drawing Taunt or Taunting Strike and make the range for it scale so when its used by Epic hero it starts to feel epic
I like Taunting Strike.

What do you think about: Taunt Daunt ?



At the moment, I see this capability as comparable to a slot-2 spell. If it increases in power while leveling, it would need to use a ‘higher level slot’ or similar mechanic.

Should the Knight (aka Warlord) actually have capability slots, like the Eldritch Knight has spell slots?



At higher tiers, the Knight would have the capabilities to make ‘melee attacks’ against each foe in reach, in close, and at epic in far.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I like Taunting Strike.

What do you think about: Taunt Daunt ?
Nyeh too gimmicky

At the moment, I see this capability as comparable to a slot-2 spell. If it increases in power while leveling, it would need to use a ‘higher level slot’ or similar mechanic.

Should the Knight (aka Warlord) actually have capability slots, like the Eldritch Knight has spell slots?

The translation I seen used the Battlemaster and an estimate that was that it was like 3 Superiority Die (I didnt actually analyse the recommendation)

The Battlemaster gets more dice but do they get enough to do interesting things...
 

Yaarel

Explorer
The translation I seen used the Battlemaster and an estimate that was that it was like 3 Superiority Die (I didnt actually analyse the recommendation)

The Battlemaster gets more dice but do they get enough to do interesting things...
Ok. For now, I will focus on what capabilities become available at what level. Using spells as gauge. Later we can see if these happen to work well with Superiority or other mechanic.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Ok. For now, I will focus on what capabilities become available at what level. Using spells as gauge. Later we can see if these happen to work well with Superiority or other mechanic.
That might be as broad a gage as anything the lack of built in level gating may be a reason to not use Superiority dice.
 

Yaarel

Explorer
That might be as broad a gage as anything the lack of built in level gating may be a reason to not use Superiority dice.
Warlock invocations might work as a model, in the sense of gaining 2 at level 1, while increasing to about 7 by immortal. Choose from a diverse assortment abilities (some always on, some at-will, some per combat encounter, etcetera). Higher levels make more powerful choices available, but many of the lower ones continue to scale well, so continue to be good choices at higher levels.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Warlock invocations might work as a model, in the sense of gaining 2 at level 1, while increasing to about 7 by immortal. Choose from a diverse assortment abilities (some always on, some at-will, some per combat encounter, etcetera). Higher levels make more powerful choices available, but many of the lower ones continue to scale well, so continue to be good choices at higher levels.
Basically we need a good core and set of classes built on it ... if its a little more flexible that is ok as long as it avoids leaving traps
 

Yaarel

Explorer
Hmmm.

Flavorwise.

Knight/Warlord maneuvers might model spell slots best that refresh after each short rest.

The idea is. Each ‘maneuver’ is a significant shift in the flow of battle. It is a perfect storm of group cohesion, discipline, and comradery, attentiveness, ongoing assessment of battlefield, strategic planning, realtime tactics, coordination, troubleshooting, clever ruses, and team responsiveness.

Often, when a Knight knows how to execute a particular maneuver, they reasonably can do it again.

The thing is, doing maneuvers is exhausting. Attention deteriorates, group cohesion unravels, fatigue impairs responsiveness.

After a while, the Knight needs a short rest, downtime to revitalize and refocus.

The higher level the Knight becomes, the more the Knight is able to press on and maintain group cohesion to accomplish even more maneuvers before the next rest is necessary.



Speaking mechanically, this models the Warlock spell slots that recharge after each short rest.

The advantage is, the format of the Knight maneuvers parallels the standard format of spells. So it is possible to compare magical and nonmagical powers directly to ensure balance between classes.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I find 5e rituals being free to cast disturbing in 4e one can pull something like the slotting of rituals via scroll use (some rituals get down to one action most are just 1/2 casting time) - one could house rule allow putting them into utility slots in a similar fashion to slotting of rituals

Arguably rituals in 4e could have been channeled and cost healing surges in place of other components ( depending on the roll ) instead and that would have been in some sense more open but not free

Honestly zero casting cost seems bad its like free wins in skill challenges
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The advantage is, the format of the Knight maneuvers parallels the standard format of spells. So it is possible to compare magical and nonmagical powers directly to ensure balance between classes.
This is the advantage of using a common general structure.

Dailies: some maneuvers are only rarely likely to occur in this case rare means once a day which one might think of as about as often as a critical hit. Now you get it reliably as a player tactical choice because fate likes heroes and OR perhaps the character can put special effort into it and in the process straining the muscle that lets them do that superhuman leap and which recovers after a long rest (or whatever). The details vary by ability somewhat like the Tricks and so on mentioned earlier for encounter abilities.

Not only casters can do big climactic moves when their player wants if you are modelling 4e
 
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