D&D 4E 4e Clone − help create it!

[Yaarel]

LOL Martial Maneuvers

Alright. So a nonmagic at-will is called a ‘maneuver’. A magic at-will is called a ‘cantrip’.

So, in the power format, ‘frequency type’ includes Rest, Long Rest, Reaction,

... and Cantrip/Maneuver (= at-will).

 

[Yaarel]

Power Grid
− Styles: Divine, Void, Arcane, Worldly
− Realms: Matter, Life, Mind, Force

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 800, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]MATTER
(elemental)[/TD]
[TD]LIFE
(primal)[/TD]
[TD]MIND
(psionic)[/TD]
[TD]FORCE
(universal)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]DIVINE
(emanate)[/TD]
[TD]Ether
• Light
• Radiance Damage[/TD]
[TD]Healing
• Life Energy
• Positive Energy
• Immortality
• Resurrection
• Renewal
• Regeneration[/TD]
[TD]Consciousness
• Awaken
• Sanity/Enlightenment
• Detect Mind
Outofbody
• Projection
• Scry/Clairvoyance
Prescience
• Fate
• Luck
• Ascertain Knowledge[/TD]
[TD]Force
• Force Damage
• Magic Energy
• Telekinesis
• Fly
• Gravity
Planes
Wish
• The Weave[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]VOID
(nullify)[/TD]
[TD]Space
• Darkness
• Teleportation
• Extradimensional
• Disintegration[/TD]
[TD]Death
• Necrotic Damage
• Disease
• Undead[/TD]
[TD]Insanity
Oblivion[/TD]
[TD]Antimagic
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ARCANE
(reshape)[/TD]
[TD]Air-Water
• Wind
• Weather
• Cold Damage
• Lightning Damage
• Thunder Damage
Earth-Fire
• Fire Damage
• Acid Damage
• Stone/Metal[/TD]
[TD]Shapeshift
Plant
Beast
Humanoid
Aura
• Bodily Aura
• Ki
• Lifeforce
• Soul
• Self-Identity[/TD]
[TD]Telepathy
• Psychic Damage
• Domination
Fear
Charm
• Sleep
Phantasm
• Suggestion
• Hallucination
• Dream
• Psionic Invisibility[/TD]
[TD]Force Construct
• Summon
• Conjuration
• Illusion[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]WORLDLY
(actuate)[/TD]
[TD]Equipment
• Weapons
• Armor
• Tools
Alchemy
• Proto-Chemistry
• Elixirs/Powders
• Elementalism
• Metal Technology
• Gemology
Crafting
• Technical Skill
• Repair
• Mechanism/Pulley
• Replica/Forgery
• Realistic Disguise[/TD]
[TD]Athletics
• Move/Speed
• Jump/Fall
• Climb/Balance
• Tumble
• Swim/Wing
• Stamina
Weightlifting
• Lift/Carry
• Heave/Push/Pull
• Bend Bars
• Break Door
Grappling
• Wrestle
• Grab Hold
• Force Move
Sense
• Seeing
• Hearing
• Scent/Taste
Stealth
Sleight of Hand
• Manual Dexterity
• Pick Pocket
• Pick Lock
• Disarm Trap
Medicine
• Anatomy
• Immune System
• Longevity
• Poison Damage
• Therapy
Nature
• Animal
• Plant
• Animal Handling
• Tracking
Survival
• Travel
• Navigation
• Read Weather
• Sailing
• Foraging[/TD]
[TD]Morale
• Willpower
• Rally
• Hit Dice
• Second Wind
Persuasion
• Influence
• Convince
• Diplomacy
• Reason/Analysis
• Esthetics/Performance
Intimidation
• Force Surrender
• Rage
• Confuse
• Create Diversion
Empathy
• Cold Reading
• Communicate Emotion
• Intention/Motive
• Streetsmarts
Intuition
• Prediction
• Extrasensory/Hunch
• Mysticism
Tactics
• Teamwork
• Military History
• Identify Foes Plan
Language
• Discern Gist
• Learn Language
History
• Culture
• Customs
• Religions
• Famous Persons
• Legends[/TD]
[TD]Arcana
• Detect Magic
• Identify Spell
• Extraplanar[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



Essentially ALL proficiencies (skills, lore, weapons, armors, tools) belong to the Worldly style.

Arguably, magic classes tend to have less access to Worldly proficiencies.

 

[GreyLord]

I believe the idea of power sources and specifically the power sources listed in 4e could fall under copyright (and/or trademark).

Same with the actual roles as defined in 4e (defender, controller, leader, etc).

Just a heads up of some of the legal difficulties in this...though others can try to do it. They have more guts to try a direct copy on that account than I do.

 

[Yaarel]

I believe the idea of power sources and specifically the power sources listed in 4e could fall under copyright (and/or trademark).

Same with the actual roles as defined in 4e (defender, controller, leader, etc).

Just a heads up of some of the legal difficulties in this...though others can try to do it. They have more guts to try a direct copy on that account than I do.

I create the following.

There are four ‘styles’:

divine, void, arcane, and worldly.

These styles are methods or modes or ways. They correspond roughly to the 4e sources: divine, shadow, arcane, and martial.

Each style can engage four ‘realms’:

matter, life, mind, and force.



I will update the Grid in the post above.



The names ‘divine’ and ‘arcane’ are plainly ok to use. But other source names are concerning. Fortunately, the role names are less relevant here.

Strictly speaking, D&D 5e lacks class sources. Of course, it has the names ‘divine’ and ‘arcane’. But these only refer to kinds of magic, rather than kinds of classes. Even then, the two terms are nonsystematic and ambiguous. For example, the Bard class is difficult to identify, and its ‘heart and soul’ seem psionic. The Druid is vague, mentioning ‘divinity’ but referring to ‘druidic magic’ as opposed to divine magic, and using a ‘druidic focus’ rather than a divine focus. Even vaguer, the Ranger is ‘much as a druid’. The terms ‘primal’ and ‘martial’ are used in ways other than a source. Finally, 5e lacks a term for nonmagical classes. 5e has no class sources.

So, the terms ‘martial’ and ‘shadow’ as sources for nonmagical and spooky classes, respectively, are peculiar to 4e.



Fortunately, the 4e role names are less of a concern.

I created the terminology referring to ‘purpose’, and it is a format for each power rather than a format for a class. The seven purposes derive from my analysis of the mechanics of D&D spells from several editions: attack/defense, mobility/barrier, detection/stealth, and assistance.

For example, both the 4e Defender and 4e Controller would use barrier powers, their difference tending to be melee range versus far range.

Purposes are a more precise description of the system mechanics.



In sum, the styles, realms, and purposes are a great system.

 

[Yaarel]

Consider the all-important character Advancement table.

Here are four tiers: Novice, Hero, Master, and Immortal.

In medieval contexts, these are apprentice/page, journeyer/squire, master/knight, plus legendary.

In Basic D&D, these tiers might loosely associate with Basic, Expert, Master, and Immortal.

4e lacks Novice for a player character, and the tiers begins at Heroic, Paragon, and Epic.

The Hero tier here has in mind the archetypal heros journey.

Here, in the Novice tier, the zero levels are normally off-camera as part of a backstory, however are here for structure. The zero level feat represents a special race power, but for the human this is a choice of a feat. The zero-level Novice works fine for adolescent adventures, like Harry Potter or Tales from the Loop. I think of the lower half of the Novice tier as ages 12 to 15, and the upper half as ages 16 to 19. But these levels can represent various concepts, including NPC classes, especially because background is part of the lower half tier.

The upper half of the Novice tier begins at level 1, the Hero tier at 5, the Master at 13, and the Immortal at 21.

These tiers schedule according to the 5e Proficiency bonus for the sake of 5e math. Each tier advances by two boosts to the proficiency bonus. Thus each tier is strictly more competent than the previous tier.

Notice, if you add the Proficiency bonus with the optional Magic bonus (as treasure or as inherent), then together they equate the + ½ level bonus that 4e uses.

Each tier has its own class features with its own capstone. Even the Novice tier has a capstone at level 3. I have this in mind for character builds who want to make a three-level ‘dip’ to pick something good up from an other class.

I also think of each tier as its own 8-level prestige class with capstone ability. With the possibility of 3e-ish multiclassing.

Each ‘base class’ such as Fighter and Wizard, includes a class advancement for every tier. So it is possible to stick with one class from 1 to 20 and higher. Many gishy builds might start of as a full Fighter up to the level 3 capstone, then switch over to a different class for magic. Or viceversa.

The advancement table includes levels for feats to customize a character, and higher level race features for more powerful creature concepts.

The progression advances the skills for noncombat challenges. At level 0, skill features define the ‘livelihood’, or background. At level 8, skill encourages the player to think about becoming the leader of a group with a ‘lair’, (business, military post, taking on magical apprentices, and so on). At level 16, this might found a massive multinational or multiplanar institution, and ‘legendary layer’. At level 24, skill offers epic capabilities to become one with a concept − and a ‘domain’ that resonates the will of character.



ADVANCEMENT
[TABLE="class: Table"]
[TR]
[TD] Tier
[/TD]
[TD] Level
[/TD]
[TD] Proficiency
Bonus[/TD]
[TD] Magic
Bonus[/TD]
[TD] Features[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD]

+0​

[/TD]
[TD]

+0​

[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] Race[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] NOVICE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD]

+1​

[/TD]
[TD]

+0​

[/TD]
[TD] Talent[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD]

+1​

[/TD]
[TD]

+0​

[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] Feat[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD]

+1​

[/TD]
[TD]

+0​

[/TD]
[TD] Class[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD]

+1​

[/TD]
[TD]

+0​

[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] Skill[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

1
​

[/TD]
[TD]

+2​

[/TD]
[TD]

+0​

[/TD]
[TD] Talent[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

2​

[/TD]
[TD]

+2​

[/TD]
[TD]

+0​

[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] Feat[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

3​

[/TD]
[TD]

+2​

[/TD]
[TD]

+0​

[/TD]
[TD] Capstone[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

4​

[/TD]
[TD]

+2​

[/TD]
[TD]

+0​

[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] Race[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] HERO[/TD]
[TD]

5​

[/TD]
[TD]

+3​

[/TD]
[TD]

+0​

[/TD]
[TD] Archetype[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

6​

[/TD]
[TD]

+3​

[/TD]
[TD]

+0​

[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] Feat[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

7​

[/TD]
[TD]

+3​

[/TD]
[TD]

+1​

[/TD]
[TD] Class[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

8​

[/TD]
[TD]

+3​

[/TD]
[TD]

+1​

[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] Skill[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

9​

[/TD]
[TD]

+4​

[/TD]
[TD]

+1​

[/TD]
[TD] Archetype[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

10​

[/TD]
[TD]

+4​

[/TD]
[TD]

+1​

[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] Feat[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

11​

[/TD]
[TD]

+4​

[/TD]
[TD]

+2​

[/TD]
[TD] Capstone[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

12​

[/TD]
[TD]

+4​

[/TD]
[TD]

+2​

[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] Race
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] MASTER[/TD]
[TD]

13​

[/TD]
[TD]

+5​

[/TD]
[TD]

+2​

[/TD]
[TD] Mastery[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

14​

[/TD]
[TD]

+5​

[/TD]
[TD]

+2​

[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] Feat[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

15​

[/TD]
[TD]

+5​

[/TD]
[TD]

+3​

[/TD]
[TD] Class[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

16​

[/TD]
[TD]

+5​

[/TD]
[TD]

+3​

[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] Skill[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

17​

[/TD]
[TD]

+6​

[/TD]
[TD]

+3​

[/TD]
[TD] Mastery[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

18​

[/TD]
[TD]

+6​

[/TD]
[TD]

+3​

[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] Feat[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

19​

[/TD]
[TD]

+6​

[/TD]
[TD]

+4​

[/TD]
[TD] Capstone[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

20​

[/TD]
[TD]

+6​

[/TD]
[TD]

+4​

[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] Race[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] IMMORTAL
[/TD]
[TD]

21​

[/TD]
[TD]

+7​

[/TD]
[TD]

+4​

[/TD]
[TD]Immortality
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

22​

[/TD]
[TD]

+7​

[/TD]
[TD]

+4​

[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] Feat[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

23​

[/TD]
[TD]

+7​

[/TD]
[TD]

+5​

[/TD]
[TD] Class[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]

24​

[/TD]
[TD]

+7​

[/TD]
[TD]

+5​

[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] Skill[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Yaarel]

I find myself referring to this 4e-clone→5e→update by the name ‘Foursome’.

Of course, the name Foursome refers to 4e. Also, it connotes how the system relies on 4 abilities. (For those using 6 abilities, I hope it is easy enough to get Constitution by splitting Strength, and to get Wisdom from Intelligence-Perception and from Charisma-Will.) Foursome also refers to the design effort for a ‘top-three-plus’ organization. There are four class styles: Arcane, Divine, Worldly, and Void. There are four realms of power: Matter, Mind, Life, and Force. And so on.

Foursome.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Strictly speaking, D&D 5e lacks class sources. Of course, it has the names ‘divine’ and ‘arcane’. But these only refer to kinds of magic, rather than kinds of classes.

Since all 5e classes use magic, it's about the same thing, really. (Though, yeah, that makes the Fighter & Thief "arcane.") ;P

 

[Xaelvaen]

In the first post, in ‘Ability Bonuses’, I have added two more ability scores. So there is a total of eight ability scores.

We actually use a modified ability score system as well, for several different games we play:
Strength, Dexterity, Agility, Vitality
Logic, Charisma, Intuition, Resolve

So the 8 scores isn't that odd of a thing (to me). If it helps diversify the characters/enemies, create more niche room, and maintain balance - it is always worth it.

However, I see you've dropped to 4 throughout the thread, so mostly irrelevant note haha.*

 

[Yaarel]

So far, the Advancement table feels solid. Hopefully it can balance with 5e math. So Foursome characters can play alongside 5e characters. The Foursome Advancement chassis alternates class features with feat, race, and skill features.



Create a Foursome Race

A typical Foursome race design is equal to two feats. This is slightly less powerful than the 5e Half Elf and 5e Wood Elf.

The zero levels supply a Race feature, equaling about 1 feat worth of abilities. It seems to me, a feat is worth roughly eight proficiencies. So, a ‘proficiency’ can serve as a standard unit of measurement to buy a minor race feature, such as trance with immunity to sleep. Heavy armor, martial weapon, and cantrip, seem worth about 2 proficiencies each.

The zero levels also supply a feat, that normally buys a race power, such as eladrin Misty Step. But for the human race, this is actually a choice of any feat.

Because race features and class features can be redundant, it helps to offer extra choices to swap in.

In sum, normal race design equals two feats, in the form of an assemblage of minor abilities plus one major power. Even so, a designer can easily repurpose this design space, such as for an Eberron House. Or maybe everyone in the group is a newbie vampire.

High levels grant additional an Race feature before each new tier, to represent a greater mastery of innate powers. These allow players to play a more powerful creature, such as a vampire.

The skill feature is important for race design because it defines the cultures within a race. For example, in a nod to 1e, the high elf community might have ‘Griffon Rider’ as a background. Githyanki might have ‘Gish’. Any notable institution can happen in Skill. At the zero levels, the Skill feature makes the player known to a specific community, such as an apprentice in a wizard school, or a page in a griffon cavalry. Whatever cultural institutions exist can happen in Skill.

Finally, no race boosts an ability. This is for various reasons, including making any race good at any class. Instead, each race might has ability prerequisites. For example, the high elf requires at least a +1 Dexterity and a +1 Intelligence in order to play this race. Every player gets an ‘exceptional array’: +3, +2, +1, +0. And the player arranges its bonuses accordingly. In this way, each race correlates with a thematic ability, but each character is equal. The human race lacks an ability prerequisite, so any arrangement is possible. Normal races make class choice flexible. A high elf Bard might be Str +0, Dex +1, Int +2, Cha +3. Special races, like drow (+3 Dex) and orc (+3 Str) strongly correlate with a particular ability, and the resulting builds are intentional.

 

[Yaarel]

We actually use a modified ability score system as well, for several different games we play:
Strength, Dexterity, Agility, Vitality
Logic, Charisma, Intuition, Resolve

So the 8 scores isn't that odd of a thing (to me). If it helps diversify the characters/enemies, create more niche room, and maintain balance - it is always worth it.

However, I see you've dropped to 4 throughout the thread, so mostly irrelevant note haha.*

Mostly, the adoption of four was a nod to make it easy to use 4e material. For example, one can literally take a black marker and blot out Constitution and Wisdom, and the monster stat block still works fine without these.

Heh, the four abilities seemed to annoy some people, but the eight abilities seemed to make them angry.



It is my intention to use *skills* to further bifurcate these four abilities, so eight still have relevance among skills.