D&D 5E 4E Cosmology

[pemerton]

Because it means you have deleted truth. That's not a sacrifice I am willing to make.

To add to the post I just made: this is nothing more than dogmatic assertion. You've not produced any arguments that actually engage with the range of relevant examples and considerations that are well-known in the scholarship on semantics of natural languages.

And that's before we even consider possible anti-realist/idealist approaches to metaphysics and epistemology, all of which have also been well-known at least since Kant.

 

[Yaarel]

The multiverse is like the internet. The websites factually exist. But these sites take up no space (sotospeak ignoring physical harddrives). Even tho they exist, which ones one can find, and successfully access, and how one experiences them, are different for different websurfers.

A cosmology, like Axis, Tree, Wheel, etcetera is the search engine.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

The multiverse is like the internet. The websites factually exist. But these sites take up no space (sotospeak ignoring physical harddrives). Even tho they exist, which ones one can find, and successfully access, and how one experiences them, are different for different websurfers.

A cosmology, like Axis, Tree, Wheel, etcetera is the search engine.

A wonderful analogy, because it makes clear the specific claims I have been taking issue with. This goes for you too @pemerton.

The World Tree cosmology explicitly says you cannot, even in principle, travel directly between two planes using the Astral Plane, that the nature of the Astral Plane is a "channeled" thing, and thus one terminus must always be the Prime. In the multiverse-is-the-internet, cosmologies-are-search-engines analogy, this would then be the statement that you can never move directly from one internet domain to another, unless you invoke some special third-party links (e.g. plane shift, which existed in 3e and thus was clearly accounted for in the World Tree). If you're going to use the, let's call it Astral Web Browser, the way that browser is coded, it must always return to the Foogle search page before it can go to a new domain. You can always use the AWB to go from Foogle to get to any domain you like, and you can always go to Foogle from any domain you like using AWB. But you cannot--ever--go directly from Hottopica.com to Pradadise.com.

The World Axis and Great Wheel explicitly say that you CAN use the Astral Web Browser to go directly from one internet domain to another. There's no need to pass through Foogle first.

Whether or not other web browsers exist--such as the PlaneShift browser or the Gate browser or whatever else--is irrelevant to whether this browser works this way, or doesn't work this way.

Only three options can apply here:
1. One of these claims is correct, and the other is incorrect. Either you can in fact go between those domains directly, or you can't.
2. Somehow both are incorrect (perhaps the Astral Web Browser doesn't exist in the first place?? I dunno mang)
3. Both are correct, but not of the same thing, in the same sense, at the same time. E.g. maybe Astral Web Browser used to need to route through Foogle, but doesn't anymore, or vice-versa, aka, not true at the same time. Or maybe a default setting of the Astral Web Browser causes it to connect to a shadow copy of the wider Internet, where you do in fact have to route through Foogle to reach any other domain, but if you change that setting then you can connect to the regular Internet, aka not true of the same thing. Not sure how to construct a "not in the same sense" structure in this case, but I'm sure there's some way.

None of these possibilities allow it to be simultaneously true that no, you simply cannot ever connect from one domain to another directly using the Astral Web Browser, and also that you simply can connect from one domain to another directly using the Astral Web Browser.

Point being, these are claims about the Astral Web Browser that different search engines make. The Astral Web Browser is available to every search engine regardless.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Because then you get people taking ivermectin to protect them from covid, and losing their intestinal lining down the toilet... and still not being protected from covid.

Science is perfectly good at showing something isn't true. Besides, Darwin award.

 

[Yaarel]

I enjoy your principled discussions.

A wonderful analogy, because it makes clear the specific claims I have been taking issue with. This goes for you too @pemerton.

Cool. It helps when there is a clear starting premise. I will focus on the internet analogy.

The World Tree cosmology explicitly says you cannot, even in principle, travel directly between two planes using the Astral Plane,

I dont fully understand this inability to travel, since the Astral Plane is literally "transitive" plane between two planes.

In any case, I do use the Astral Sea to travel from one alignment plane to an other. As I understand it. Each alignment plane comprises multiple dominions, and some of these dominions "border" the Astral Sea. The dominions that do border can be seen from the Astral Sea as floating islands. These islands are more like internet links to "click" on, to open up the dominion in the alignment plane. From the perspective of the Astral Sea, as one approaches the floating island, at a certain boundary, the inside of the island starts to become "bigger on the inside" than it was when approaching the size of the island from a distance.

One can hop from island to island while traveling the Astral Sea in a spelljammer. However, the locations of the islands within the mindscape sea are subjective. If the Tree is ones search engine, then certain islands might be next to each other, namely within sight of each other. If the Wheel is the search engine, then the nearness or farness of an island depends on that search engine.

that the nature of the Astral Plane is a "channeled" thing, and thus one terminus must always be the Prime.

As I understand it, the Astral Plane can exist without the Material Plane. (Or more precisely, the Astral Plane can exist while the Material Plane is empty nothingness. Part of the "creation" of the multiverse, is the Astral Plane coming up with ideas for how to populate the Material Plane.)

Thus one can travel from one alignment plane to an other, thru the Astral Sea, without entering the Material Plane via one of the Wild Spaces.

Of course, if one is traveling to and from the Material Plane, then the Material Plane is a terminus.

In the multiverse-is-the-internet, cosmologies-are-search-engines analogy, this would then be the statement that you can never move directly from one internet domain to another, unless you invoke some special third-party links (e.g. plane shift, which existed in 3e and thus was clearly accounted for in the World Tree).

I think I agree with this statement.

When traveling from the Material to the Astral, or from one alignment plane to an other, it is a "planeshift", not a "teleportation". One does not change "location in space" because there is no space. Rather one is "shifting" ones "frequency" sotospeak, to "tune into" what exists at such frequency − the plane "shift".

Such as in a dream, one does not "teleport" from one space to an other. But one scene "shifts" to an other, because they have something in common that reminds the dreamer of each one. This association between two scenes is the "nearness" of the scenes to each other.

If you're going to use the, let's call it Astral Web Browser, the way that browser is coded, it must always return to the Foogle search page before it can go to a new domain.

Actually yes. This "Foogle search page" is what the Spelljammer Helm supplies. This page allows a sense of up-and-down. It is like a Foogle page, but rather than a two-dimensional screen, it is a three-dimensional virtual reality, where the islands are near or far around one.

One can learn to travel the Astral Plane intuitively, without a Helm. But it is more like familiarity with dream interpretations.

You can always use the AWB to go from Foogle to get to any domain you like, and you can always go to Foogle from any domain you like using AWB. But you cannot--ever--go directly from Hottopica.com to Pradadise.com.

The AWB − indeed, the Spelljammer Helm. The Helm supplies a consistent view of the Astral Plane, where the "locations" sotospeak of a floating island remains a moreorless reliable landmark to determine the "direction" and "distance" of an other island.

You can go from the dominion of "Hottopica.com" directly to dominion of "Pradadise.com" ... if Hottopica itself has a link to Pradadise. These links are "whirlpools", "portals", "crossings". These are still via the Astral Plane, but more like wormholes that step across with no "distance" in between.

The Planeshift spell is similarly opening like a wormhole shifting from one frequency to an other, with virtually no frequencies in between.

The World Axis and Great Wheel explicitly say that you CAN use the Astral Web Browser to go directly from one internet domain to another. There's no need to pass through Foogle first.

The way the Astral Plane appears to a traveler there, is itself the Foogle.

If the search engine was Fing instead of Foogle, the things in the Astral Plane would appear in a different constellation.

Whether or not other web browsers exist--such as the PlaneShift browser or the Gate browser or whatever else--is irrelevant to whether this browser works this way, or doesn't work this way.

I hope I supplied enough explanation to understand what I am saying.

The Planeshift spell is like link to a page. The Gate spell might be understood more like an email address to chat with someone directly.

Both are like wormholes thru the Astal Plane to access the correct "frequency" (web address) directly.

Only three options can apply here:
1. One of these claims is correct, and the other is incorrect. Either you can in fact go between those domains directly, or you can't.

1. I dont see a problem. Maybe the description about the Tree is imprecise. Explain your understanding of the Tree. The Wheel and the Axis work fine with the comments above in this post.

2. Somehow both are incorrect (perhaps the Astral Web Browser doesn't exist in the first place?? I dunno mang)

2. If one can perceive the Astral Plane at all, in any way, then one is already using some kind of cosmology (search engine / browser) to become sensitive to frequencies (websites).

3. Both are correct, but not of the same thing, in the same sense, at the same time. E.g. maybe Astral Web Browser used to need to route through Foogle, but doesn't anymore, or vice-versa, aka, not true at the same time. Or maybe a default setting of the Astral Web Browser causes it to connect to a shadow copy of the wider Internet, where you do in fact have to route through Foogle to reach any other domain, but if you change that setting then you can connect to the regular Internet, aka not true of the same thing. Not sure how to construct a "not in the same sense" structure in this case, but I'm sure there's some way.

3. I think all the cosmologies are "correct", namely sufficiently useful. But explain to me more about why the Tree is odd.

None of these possibilities allow it to be simultaneously true that no, you simply cannot ever connect from one domain to another directly using the Astral Web Browser, and also that you simply can connect from one domain to another directly using the Astral Web Browser.

Everything is simultaneously true. Because.

If I use the Axis, the planes are in a certain location, but if I use the Wheel the planes are in a different location, from the perspective of being in the Astral Plane or the Elemental Chaos.

It is probably fair to understanding the Elemental Chaos that "borders" the Astral Plane as being part of the Astral Plane, or at least entangling it.

(Moreover, the Astral Plane overlays all that exists. If something exists at all it is part of the "ideas", "patterns", of the Astral Plane. Therefore, ultimately, one can travel via the Astral Plane to anywhere.)

Point being, these are claims about the Astral Web Browser that different search engines make. The Astral Web Browser is available to every search engine regardless.

The Astral Plane is the internet as a whole. The cosmology is the method of how to find things within the internet.


I hope I communicated clearly enough to give a sense of my understanding of the Astral Plane and the conflictive cosmologies. If there are specific difficulties, I appreciate you calling attention to them.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I enjoy your principled discussions.


Cool. It helps when there is a clear starting premise. I will focus on the internet analogy.


I dont fully understand this inability to travel, since the Astral Plane is literally "transitive" plane between two planes.

In any case, I do use the Astral Sea to travel from one alignment plane to an other. As I understand it. Each alignment plane comprises multiple dominions, and some of these dominions "border" the Astral Sea. The dominions that do border can be seen from the Astral Sea as floating islands. These islands are more like internet links to "click" on, to open up the dominion in the alignment plane. From the perspective of the Astral Sea, as one approaches the floating island, at a certain boundary, the inside of the island starts to become "bigger on the inside" than it was when approaching the size of the island from a distance.

One can hop from island to island while traveling the Astral Sea in a spelljammer. However, the locations of the islands within the mindscape sea are subjective. If the Tree is ones search engine, then certain islands might be next to each other, namely within sight of each other. If the Wheel is the search engine, then the nearness or farness of an island depends on that search engine.


As I understand it, the Astral Plane can exist without the Material Plane. (Or more precisely, the Astral Plane can exist while the Material Plane is empty nothingness. Part of the "creation" of the multiverse, is the Astral Plane coming up with ideas for how to populate the Material Plane.)

Thus one can travel from one alignment plane to an other, thru the Astral Sea, without entering the Material Plane via one of the Wild Spaces.

Of course, if one is traveling to and from the Material Plane, then the Material Plane is a terminus.


I think I agree with this statement.

When traveling from the Material to the Astral, or from one alignment plane to an other, it is a "planeshift", not a "teleportation". One does not change "location in space" because there is no space. Rather one is "shifting" ones "frequency" sotospeak, to "tune into" what exists at such frequency − the plane "shift".

Such as in a dream, one does not "teleport" from one space to an other. But one scene "shifts" to an other, because they have something in common that reminds the dreamer of each one. This association between two scenes is the "nearness" of the scenes to each other.


Actually yes. This "Foogle search page" is what the Spelljammer Helm supplies. This page allows a sense of up-and-down. It is like a Foogle page, but rather than a two-dimensional screen, it is a three-dimensional virtual reality, where the islands are near or far around one.

One can learn to travel the Astral Plane intuitively, without a Helm. But it is more like familiarity with dream interpretations.


The AWB − indeed, the Spelljammer Helm. The Helm supplies a consistent view of the Astral Plane, where the "locations" sotospeak of a floating island remains a moreorless reliable landmark to determine the "direction" and "distance" of an other island.

You can go from the dominion of "Hottopica.com" directly to dominion of "Pradadise.com" ... if Hottopica itself has a link to Pradadise. These links are "whirlpools", "portals", "crossings". These are still via the Astral Plane, but more like wormholes that step across with no "distance" in between.

The Planeshift spell is similarly opening like a wormhole shifting from one frequency to an other, with virtually no frequencies in between.


The way the Astral Plane appears to a traveler there, is itself the Foogle.

If the search engine was Fing instead of Foogle, the things in the Astral Plane would appear in a different constellation.


I hope I supplied enough explanation to understand what I am saying.

The Planeshift spell is like link to a page. The Gate spell might be understood more like an email address to chat with someone directly.

Both are like wormholes thru the Astal Plane to access the correct "frequency" (web address) directly.


1. I dont see a problem. Maybe the description about the Tree is imprecise. Explain your understanding of the Tree. The Wheel and the Axis work fine with the comments above in this post.


2. If one can perceive the Astral Plane at all, in any way, then one is already using some kind of cosmology (search engine / browser) to become sensitive to frequencies (websites).


3. I think all the cosmologies are "correct", namely sufficiently useful. But explain to me more about why the Tree is odd.


Everything is simultaneously true. Because.

If I use the Axis, the planes are in a certain location, but if I use the Wheel the planes are in a different location, from the perspective of being in the Astral Plane or the Elemental Chaos.

It is probably fair to understanding the Elemental Chaos that "borders" the Astral Plane as being part of the Astral Plane, or at least entangling it.

(Moreover, the Astral Plane overlays all that exists. If something exists at all it is part of the "ideas", "patterns", of the Astral Plane. Therefore, ultimately, one can travel via the Astral Plane to anywhere.)


The Astral Plane is the internet as a whole. The cosmology is the method of how to find things within the internet.


I hope I communicated clearly enough to give a sense of my understanding of the Astral Plane and the conflictive cosmologies. If there are specific difficulties, I appreciate you calling attention to them.

So, there seems to be something of a disconnect here.

I'm describing an explicit claim, made by the World Tree cosmology. This isn't me inventing a thing. It's something canonical to the World Tree.

Having read more closely, it seems that the strong claim is different, but not dramatically so.

In the D&D cosmology, the Astral Plane surrounds all the other​

planes in a shapeless cloud, allowing astral travel directly from one​

plane to any other. But Toril’s Astral Plane shares the treelike shape​

of the cosmology as a whole. Because of this arrangement, it is dif-​

ficult (though not completely impossible) to jump from branch to​

branch of the tree—that is, to cross directly from one Inner Plane​

or Outer Plane to another. (See Traveling the Planes, below, for​

more information.) It is more natural—and far safer—to travel​

between the Inner Planes or Outer Planes by way of the trunk​

(the Material Plane). As part of its ability to alter the nature of​

its realm, a deity can forge a direct connection to any other deity’s​

realm, so long as both deities agree. Apart from divine influence,​

however, such direct connections are impossible.​

​

Travel from one Outer Plane to another is slightly more com-​

plicated. Normal astral travel cannot take a character directly​

from one plane to another except by way of the Material Plane.​

A character or monster can use plane shift to move directly from​

the Material Plane to any other plane or vice versa, but not from​

one Inner Plane or Outer Plane to a different Inner Plane or Outer​

Plane.​

3e Player's Guide to Faerun, p 139-140 (two separate but related sections)

The structure of Toril's Astral Plane is tree-like. It specifically only has "branches" connecting one plane to another. You have to do a very dangerous thing in order to even attempt to cross between those branches. Direct connections between different planes simply do not exist in Toril's Astral Plane, unless personally created by deities to link their divine domains together. (Meaning, for example, direct connections from any of the Inner Planes to any of the Outer Planes are simply impossible, since no deity can claim those spaces as their domain.)

Conversely, direct connections between all planes can--and often do!--exist regardless of divine intervention in the World Axis and Great Wheel. Indeed, creating such connections is a slow but completely achievable process for purely mortal beings with enough magic mojo.

Either these connections exist, or they do not. There could be changing truths, or truths that only apply to area A but not to area B, or truths that apply only in one sense. But these connections between planes can't both exist and not exist in the same world, in the same sense, at the same time.

Note that it even (explicitly!) says that plane shift DOES NOT work to get you from Outer Plane A to Outer Plane B! This is something literally anyone who can cast plane shift can verify. Anyone who can survey the planes can check for counter-examples where a connection not created by deities exists between two non-Material planes.

 

[Yaarel]

So, there seems to be something of a disconnect here.

I'm describing an explicit claim, made by the World Tree cosmology. This isn't me inventing a thing. It's something canonical to the World Tree.

Yeah, I sensed you were referring to a difficulty that the Tree cosmology officially causes. I will parse it line by line as I go thru it. (Thanks for finding the quote below.)

The overall impression is, the Wheel and Axis search engines can easily list links to many websites in the multiverse, that the Tree search engine actively censors.

Here is a schematic map of the Tree cosmology, I assume it is official or at least representative enough.

If I understand this map, then each plane is a separate website in the Astral internet. The Tree search engine groups the links to these web addresses into four groupings: Celestial, Fiendish, Neutral (?), and Elemental (the Inner Planes?). Toril is the planet of the Forgotten Realms setting. The planet itself is functioning as the search engine page, that has all the links that one can click to get to any of these particular websites in the internet.

Notably (if I understand correctly), there is no Astral Plane! Or rather, one cannot use the Tree search engine to click to the Astral Plane. (The Astral Plane is part of the "dark webs" that the search engine doesnt link to.)

For example, one of the Celestial Planes is Arvandor. There is a direct line connecting somewhere on planet Toril to Arvandor. This line is like a wormhole tunneling thru the Astral Plane, to get from Toril directly to Arvandor. When "shifting" from the frequency of Toril in the Material Plane to instead attune the frequency of the Arvandor, there are virtually no frequencies in between, no "distance". This is a "portal". Step thru the portal, and one is at the new frequency.

The Tree cosmology is actually a map of portals. All of the portals are somewhere on the planet of Toril.

(Note, there are portals linking back-and-forth between Arvandor and a plane called Cynosure, but only Forgotten Realms deities can click on these links to access that other website. The Arvandor-Cynosure portal way has no connection to the planet Toril.)


With the map of the Tree cosmology in mind, I am now going thru the passage you quote.

Having read more closely, it seems that the strong claim is different, but not dramatically so.

In the D&D cosmology, the Astral Plane surrounds all the other​

planes in a shapeless cloud, allowing astral travel directly from one​

plane to any other.​

Essentially, the Astral Plane does exist, but it is difficult for the Tree search engine to find it.

Here in the Tree, the Astral Plane "surrounds" the other planes.

I would say more precisely, the Astral Plane "overlays" all planes that exist anywhere. In the sense that Astral "contains" every plane, where the Astral exists but a particular plane doesnt, the Astral can be said to surround that plane (as well as overlaying it).

But Toril’s Astral Plane shares the treelike shape of the cosmology as a whole.​

Because Toril uses the Tree search engine, one can only click on the links that are on planet Toril. Each link wormholes thru the Astral Plane, directly to the website address of the other plane. For example, clicking on the Arvandor link gets to there immediately. There is no stopping point somewhere "in between", such as somewhere in the Astral Sea.

Because of this arrangement, it is difficult (though not completely impossible) to jump from branch to branch of the tree—that is, to cross directly from one Inner Plane or Outer Plane to another.​

This statement makes sense. The Tree is the (cultural) cosmology that the inhabitants of this planet use as their methodology to navigate to the websites that are in the mindscape of the Astral Plane.

Because of "this arrangement" − the way that the Tree search engine discovers, evaluates, and prioritizes the websites − it is "difficult" to jump from branch to branch, namely from one website directly to a different website, without first returning to Toril to click the link to that other website.

Difficult but not impossible, because Arvandor itself has portals to click on to get to other websites. (Arvandor itself in my view borders the Astral Sea, so one can go thru a kind of planar "crossing" to find oneself near the edge of a floating island in the Astral Sea. From there one can sail the Astral Sea.) However, the Tree search engine cannot find these other links that exist at those other websites.

In sum, the Astral Plane exists, but the Tree doesnt list a link to click to there.

(See Traveling the Planes, below, for more information.) It is more natural—and far safer—to travel between the Inner Planes or Outer Planes by way of the trunk (the Material Plane).​

Heh, this is a kind of cosmic censorship. It is "safer" to only use the "official" links that the Tree search engine supplies. Yes, there is less risk of "malware", but also less opportunity to disagree with the Forgotten Realms "gods", the dictators of Toril.

As part of its ability to alter the nature of its realm, a deity can forge a direct connection to any other deity’s realm, so long as both deities agree. Apart from divine influence, however, such direct connections are impossible.​

Among the Celestial, Fiendish, and Neutral (?) websites, the rulers of these websites agree by a treaty to remove any unsanctioned links between each other.

Travel from one Outer Plane to another is slightly more complicated. Normal astral travel cannot take a character directly from one plane to another except by way of the Material Plane.​

"Normal." Travel across the Tree only allows access via official routes. There are whole universes in the mindscape of the Astral Plane − that the Forgotten Realms "rulers" dont want Toril to see.

A character or monster can use plane shift to move directly from the Material Plane to any other plane or vice versa, but not from one Inner Plane or Outer Plane to a different Inner Plane or Outer Plane.​

Interesting. The Forgotten Realms deities are directly interfering with spellcasting. This apparently relates to their control, regulation, and censorship of the "Weave".

3e Player's Guide to Faerun, p 139-140 (two separate but related sections)

The structure of Toril's Astral Plane is tree-like. It specifically only has "branches" connecting one plane to another. You have to do a very dangerous thing in order to even attempt to cross between those branches.

In other words, it is "very dangerous" to disobey the Forgotten Realms deities. The regime might even punish an inhabitant of Toril for thought crimes if one visits one of the unauthorized locations within the Astral thought scape, that lies beyond the Tree search engine, beyond the control of Forgotten Realms deities.

Direct connections between different planes simply do not exist in Toril's Astral Plane, unless personally created by deities to link their divine domains together. (Meaning, for example, direct connections from any of the Inner Planes to any of the Outer Planes are simply impossible, since no deity can claim those spaces as their domain.)

Of course, the infinity of unsanctioned planes and portals exist in the Astral Plane, but there is almost no way for the inhabitants of Toril to discover them. Toril with its regulated access points are a prison in the mindscape of the Astral Plane.

Conversely, direct connections between all planes can--and often do!--exist regardless of divine intervention in the World Axis and Great Wheel. Indeed, creating such connections is a slow but completely achievable process for purely mortal beings with enough magic mojo.

The Forgotten Realms official Tree search engine, is censorship. The Wheel search engine and the Axis search engine discover and link to places that the Tree refuses to. If someone on Toril got a hold of one of these illegal search engines, one could get to the Astral Sea and explore. But the surveillance by the Forgotton Realms divine dictatorship would probably know about it, especially if using unauthorized usage of the "Weave".

Either these connections exist, or they do not. There could be changing truths, or truths that only apply to area A but not to area B, or truths that apply only in one sense. But these connections between planes can't both exist and not exist in the same world, in the same sense, at the same time.

The rest of the multiverse exists, but the inhabitants on Toril using the Tree search engine cannot access the places that the Tree censors. Even the Astral Plane itself is highly censored by the Tree.

Note that it even (explicitly!) says that plane shift DOES NOT work to get you from Outer Plane A to Outer Plane B!

The Planeshift spell on Toril doesnt work properly. It is like officially censored internet search results.

This is something literally anyone who can cast plane shift can verify. Anyone who can survey the planes can check for counter-examples where a connection not created by deities exists between two non-Material planes.

The Tree, Wheel, and Axis are true. But the Wheel and Axis can easily access websites that the Tree officially removes.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Yeah, I sensed you were referring to a difficulty that the Tree cosmology officially causes. I will parse it line by line as I go thru it. (Thanks for finding the quote below.)

The overall impression is, the Wheel and Axis search engines can easily list links to many websites in the multiverse, that the Tree search engine actively censors.

Here is a schematic map of the Tree cosmology, I assume it is official or at least representative enough.

If I understand this map, then each plane is a separate website in the Astral internet. The Tree search engine groups the links to these web addresses into four groupings: Celestial, Fiendish, Neutral (?), and Elemental (the Inner Planes?). Toril is the planet of the Forgotten Realms setting. The planet itself is functioning as the search engine page, that has all the links that one can click to get to any of these particular websites in the internet.

Notably (if I understand correctly), there is no Astral Plane! Or rather, one cannot use the Tree search engine to click to the Astral Plane. (The Astral Plane is part of the "dark webs" that the search engine doesnt link to.)

No. The World Tree shape IS the Astral Plane. All of those "branches" are Toril's Astral Plane. The text is quite explicit about that fact.

That's where the disconnect lies. I appreciate the rest of your response, it's good stuff and very thorough! But with this one, first misunderstanding, the entire rest of the analysis is thrown off.

The Planeshift spell on Toril doesnt work probably. It is like officially censored internet search results.

No, it works perfectly fine. It's just that it ONLY works to (or from) Toril. If you cast plane shift while located in, say, Dweomerheart, you get one choice of destination: Toril. If you cast it on Toril, you can pick any other plane you wish to go to. This is because--as noted--the World Tree structure is Toril's Astral Plane, and thus spells that operate by invoking the Astral Plane, such as plane shift, do not have the capacity to traverse directly from one to another. You must cast plane shift twice in order to travel from any Outer (or Inner) plane to any other Outer (or Inner) plane--once to get to Toril, and then again to get to your destination.

The Tree, Wheel, and Axis are true. But the Wheel and Axis can easily access websites that the Tree officially removes.

But how is that possible? All three of them agree an Astral Plane exists. Two disagree with the third about whether that Astral is tree-shaped and works by branches and only allows planar travel if it passes through the "trunk" (Toril, aka the Prime Material), or cloud-shaped and permitting travel between any two points as one likes.

The "censorship" angle only makes sense under your (unfortunately, mistaken) claim that the Astral Plane simply isn't part of the World Tree cosmology at all. But it is part of that cosmology, indeed, it's the thing in the cosmology that is tree-shaped!

 

[Yaarel]

No. The World Tree shape IS the Astral Plane. All of those "branches" are Toril's Astral Plane. The text is quite explicit about that fact.

That's where the disconnect lies. I appreciate the rest of your response, it's good stuff and very thorough! But with this one, first misunderstanding, the entire rest of the analysis is thrown off.


No, it works perfectly fine. It's just that it ONLY works to (or from) Toril. If you cast plane shift while located in, say, Dweomerheart, you get one choice of destination: Toril. If you cast it on Toril, you can pick any other plane you wish to go to. This is because--as noted--the World Tree structure is Toril's Astral Plane, and thus spells that operate by invoking the Astral Plane, such as plane shift, do not have the capacity to traverse directly from one to another. You must cast plane shift twice in order to travel from any Outer (or Inner) plane to any other Outer (or Inner) plane--once to get to Toril, and then again to get to your destination.


But how is that possible? All three of them agree an Astral Plane exists. Two disagree with the third about whether that Astral is tree-shaped and works by branches and only allows planar travel if it passes through the "trunk" (Toril, aka the Prime Material), or cloud-shaped and permitting travel between any two points as one likes.

The "censorship" angle only makes sense under your (unfortunately, mistaken) claim that the Astral Plane simply isn't part of the World Tree cosmology at all. But it is part of that cosmology, indeed, it's the thing in the cosmology that is tree-shaped!

I will get back later. At the moment: the Tree has "lines" thru the Astral Plane. There is no link with a terminus on the Astral Plane itself.

 

[Chaltab]

So, there seems to be something of a disconnect here.

I'm describing an explicit claim, made by the World Tree cosmology. This isn't me inventing a thing. It's something canonical to the World Tree.

Having read more closely, it seems that the strong claim is different, but not dramatically so.

In the D&D cosmology, the Astral Plane surrounds all the other​

planes in a shapeless cloud, allowing astral travel directly from one​

plane to any other. But Toril’s Astral Plane shares the treelike shape​

of the cosmology as a whole. Because of this arrangement, it is dif-​

ficult (though not completely impossible) to jump from branch to​

branch of the tree—that is, to cross directly from one Inner Plane​

or Outer Plane to another. (See Traveling the Planes, below, for​

more information.) It is more natural—and far safer—to travel​

between the Inner Planes or Outer Planes by way of the trunk​

(the Material Plane). As part of its ability to alter the nature of​

its realm, a deity can forge a direct connection to any other deity’s​

realm, so long as both deities agree. Apart from divine influence,​

however, such direct connections are impossible.​

​

Travel from one Outer Plane to another is slightly more com-​

plicated. Normal astral travel cannot take a character directly​

from one plane to another except by way of the Material Plane.​

A character or monster can use plane shift to move directly from​

the Material Plane to any other plane or vice versa, but not from​

one Inner Plane or Outer Plane to a different Inner Plane or Outer​

Plane.​

3e Player's Guide to Faerun, p 139-140 (two separate but related sections)

The structure of Toril's Astral Plane is tree-like. It specifically only has "branches" connecting one plane to another. You have to do a very dangerous thing in order to even attempt to cross between those branches. Direct connections between different planes simply do not exist in Toril's Astral Plane, unless personally created by deities to link their divine domains together. (Meaning, for example, direct connections from any of the Inner Planes to any of the Outer Planes are simply impossible, since no deity can claim those spaces as their domain.)

Conversely, direct connections between all planes can--and often do!--exist regardless of divine intervention in the World Axis and Great Wheel. Indeed, creating such connections is a slow but completely achievable process for purely mortal beings with enough magic mojo.

Either these connections exist, or they do not. There could be changing truths, or truths that only apply to area A but not to area B, or truths that apply only in one sense. But these connections between planes can't both exist and not exist in the same world, in the same sense, at the same time.

Note that it even (explicitly!) says that plane shift DOES NOT work to get you from Outer Plane A to Outer Plane B! This is something literally anyone who can cast plane shift can verify. Anyone who can survey the planes can check for counter-examples where a connection not created by deities exists between two non-Material planes.

I'm not sure why 3E lore has any bearing on how the cosmology of 5E works. In 5E the notion that the shapes of the planes are unknowable and the cosmologies are theoretical frameworks is the canon.