D&D 5E 4E Cosmology

[EzekielRaiden]

I'm not sure why 3E lore has any bearing on how the cosmology of 5E works. In 5E the notion that the shapes of the planes are unknowable and the cosmologies are theoretical frameworks is the canon.

Because....this is the only meaningful source about the World Tree cosmology? Which is one of the cosmologies people have said is exactly as true and accurate as the World Axis and Great Wheel?

How can I be faulted for going to the only sources we have about one of the three cosmologies explicitly brought up as being co-equal? It's not like 5e, whether 5.0 or 5.5, has spent more than...let's see...less than half of a single page talking about it.

 

[Chaltab]

Because....this is the only meaningful source about the World Tree cosmology? Which is one of the cosmologies people have said is exactly as true and accurate as the World Axis and Great Wheel?

How can I be faulted for going to the only sources we have about one of the three cosmologies explicitly brought up as being co-equal? It's not like 5e, whether 5.0 or 5.5, has spent more than...let's see...less than half of a single page talking about it.

I mean that's a fair answer but I meant more in a meta sense about this conversation. The reason that these things can't be mutually true in your view is because of things said in those old source books. But D&D retcons itself all the time, and the current version of the canon they are.

Personally, I would reconcile this by saying that, for a time prior to the Spellplague, there was an age in which Plane Shift spells couldn't be used between two divine realms without direct divine action, and this was explained by the shape of the planes being a tree. The math checked out. But things shift and change and the theory was refined. And some of the math still makes it look like maybe there's a tree-shape there, but the 'proof' that it's a tree is no longer accurate.

That seems to be what the official interpretation is: basically anything written about the planes is the best guesses of scholars based on how the magic works and the guesses change as new data occurs.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

I love 4e's cosmology. I wish they had kept it for 5e. It makes so much more sense than the Great Wheel.

I also like Eberron's cosmology.

How do you feel about FR 3e's cosmology?

 

[pukunui]

How do you feel about FR 3e's cosmology?

I’m not familiar enough with it to have an opinion.

 

[Yaarel]

No. The World Tree shape IS the Astral Plane. All of those "branches" are Toril's Astral Plane. The text is quite explicit about that fact.

The term "branches" seems to mean the planes themselves. The plane of Arvandor is one "branch". Arvandor is a part of the Astral Plane.

But there is also a "line" between Astral Arvandor and Material Toril. This line passes thru other parts of the Astral Plane, outside of Arvandor. For example, to get from Toril to Arvandor one can enter the Forgotten Realms Astral Wild Space (Realmspace), and from there enter the Astral Sea, and finally while traveling the Sea arrive at the destination of Arvandor. These "shifts" in frequencies are happening at the "speed of thought", virtually instantaneously until one arrives at the frequency of Arvandor. Even so there is this pathway from Toril to Arvandor.

This Tree branch "line" passes thru the Astral Sea that exists in the 4e Axis and the 3e Wheel. But it is like one is driving on a highway that passes thru a town but lacking exits to get off the highway into the town. Technically, the portal has passage thru the Astral Sea, but there is no exit in the Astral Sea itself to actually visit this Astral Sea. One cannot get off planeshift highway until one is arrives in Arvandor.

The Astral Sea of the Wheel and Axis exists. But the Tree doesnt get there.

That's where the disconnect lies. I appreciate the rest of your response, it's good stuff and very thorough! But with this one, first misunderstanding, the entire rest of the analysis is thrown off.

The Tree map isnt a map of the multiverse. It is a map of the planeshift portals.

It is like a map of a subway system. Rather than the road map of the city. The subway can only visit very specific locations in the city, but not the rest of the city.

No, it works perfectly fine.

The subway system works fine. But it prevents one from getting off anywhere except the specific stops of the subway route. Moreover, each Toril subway route only has two terminuses, without any additional stops in between.

It's just that it ONLY works to (or from) Toril.

Precisely correct. The spellcasting limitations with regard to planeshift destinations only exist in the Forgotten Realms setting.

The Tree is a highly restricted passage thru the multiverse. The rest of the multiverse is out there beyond the dark tunnels of the subway route.

If you cast plane shift while located in, say, Dweomerheart, you get one choice of destination: Toril.

The Forgotten Realms setting, modifies spells, in order to prevent access to other settings.

This is a limitation of the tightly controlled Weave. It is not a limitation of the multiverse. If the government of a country controls and censors its internet, that country (Forgotten Realms) doesnt actually cause all of the other countries to cease to exist. It is merely the citizens of the (Forgotten Realms) country who are kept in the dark, ignorant about what is going on in other countries.

If you cast it on Toril, you can pick any other plane you wish to go to.

If one is casting a spell on Toril, then one is already part of the Forgotten Realms setting and its Weave. Ones magic is already controlled and censored by the Weave. The Weave prevents access to the rest of the multiverse. The Weave censors magic.

But the rest of the multiverse still exists.

This is because--as noted--the World Tree structure is Toril's Astral Plane.

The Tree is the only part of the Astral Plane that Forgotten Realms is allowed to see.

The description of the Tree cosmology even says: in fact, it is "possible" to see other parts of the Astral Plane − except it is "difficult" to get there when using the Tree.

The Tree even officially admits, the Axis and Wheel are correct. The Tree is only a tiny sliver of the rest of the Astral Plane.

and thus spells that operate by invoking the Astral Plane, such as plane shift, do not have the capacity to traverse directly from one to another. You must cast plane shift twice in order to travel from any Outer (or Inner) plane to any other Outer (or Inner) plane--once to get to Toril, and then again to get to your destination.

This spellcasting limitation is only true in the Forgotten Realms setting, and because of the regulation of the Weave. The rest of the multiverse has nothing to do with this kind magical censorship.

But how is that possible? All three of them agree an Astral Plane exists. Two disagree with the third about whether that Astral is tree-shaped and works by branches and only allows planar travel if it passes through the "trunk" (Toril, aka the Prime Material), or cloud-shaped and permitting travel between any two points as one likes.

But actually, there is no disagreement. The Tree even admits other parts of the Astral Plane exist, such as the part of the Astral Plane that is "between" Celestial Arvandor and Infernal Fury. Namely, the Astral Sea exists but it is difficult for the Tree travelers to get there.

The Axis and the Wheel describe the Astral Plane and its Sea more fully. But all three cosmologies agree, even the Tree.

The "censorship" angle only makes sense under your (unfortunately, mistaken) claim that the Astral Plane simply isn't part of the World Tree cosmology at all. But it is part of that cosmology, indeed, it's the thing in the cosmology that is tree-shaped!

Arvandor is part of the Astral Plane. If one is in Arvandor, it is correct to say one is in the Astral Plane. However, the vastness of the Astral Plane extends beyond Arvandor. It is that vastness, the Astral Sea − this part that isnt Arvandor, the part of the Astral Sea that "surrounds" Arvandor − that the Tree routes can only access with "difficulty".

The Tree enforces restricted access to the Astral Plane.

According to the Tree:
"
The Astral Plane surrounds all the other planes in a shapeless cloud, allowing astral travel directly from one plane to any other. But Toril’s Astral Plane shares the treelike shape of the cosmology as a whole.

"
The Astral Plane exists and "surrounds" planes like Toril and Arvandor.

But Toril can only access subway tunnels thru the Astral Plane.

Toril and its specific access points suffers extremely restricted access to the rest of the Astral Plane.

According to the Tree:
"
It is difficult (though not completely impossible) to jump from branch to branch of the tree − that is, to cross directly from one ... Outer Plane to another.

"

The Astral Sea exists. It is "not completely impossible" to visit the rest of the Astral Sea, even when using the routes of the Tree. But it is "difficult" to get to the Astral Sea from the Tree routes.



In sum, all three cosmologies agree. The Astral Sea that is between the Celestial planes exists, but the Tree doesnt access there.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

The Tree enforces restricted access to the Astral Plane.

Okay.

How can that be the case AND ALSO, at one and the same time, in one and the same place (Toril), in one and the same sense, there is not, at all, any restriction whatsoever?

That's the thing I'm catching on here. Either there is a restriction on Toril's Astral Plane, or there isn't.

If there is--if it is, as the book in question says, a "channeled" transitive plane--then it can't be the case that FOR TORIL, the Astral Plane really truly does exist everywhere and allow you to go anywhere you like etc., etc. If there isn't such a restriction, then the World Tree model is simply, straight-up, objectively wrong about the nature of reality. It's not "oh that's just one story we tell", it's just...flat-out incorrect on an enormous swathe of how reality works for Toril.

Only one of these things can be true. This is a hard binary. Either there is a restriction, or there isn't. If there is, then the World Tree model is simply correct and the other models that claim you can plane shift directly between any two Outer/Inner planes are just straight-up wrong about that, or there isn't, and the World Tree model is simply straight-up wrong about that.

There is no in-between here. We're talking about one specific plane (so it is the same place). There is only one possible sense, either you can do the thing, or you can't. And we're talking about a single specific time (late 15th century by the current FR calendar, IIRC?), so that doesn't affect things either. We have two competing claims:

1. "You cannot, even in principle, plane shift directly between two different planes in the late 15th century on Toril."
2. "You can, at least in principle, plane shift directly between two different planes in the late 15th century on Toril."

One or the other of these claims must be true. The World Tree claims the former, very explicitly. The World Axis and Great Wheel claim the latter.

Hence, it is not possible that all three cosmologies can be said to reasonably reflect the observable reality of Toril, the default setting of 5.x (even though Greyhawk is getting renewed interest). Even before we start looking at how the World Tree claims there are specific planes that just straight-up don't exist in the World Axis or Great Wheel, and likewise that there are planes that exist in the Great Wheel that don't exist in the other two etc.!

Now, maybe we can say these are all ad-hoc models getting constantly revised and updated as new discoveries are made, or as changes to reality occur. If that's the case, they should in fact explain that, rather than just leaving it up to implication that "well, the models only make sense if we the readers continuously retcon them, so obviously we have to continuously retcon them." That is, at the very least, extremely sloppy worldbuilding.

 

[pemerton]

I'm describing an explicit claim, made by the World Tree cosmology. This isn't me inventing a thing. It's something canonical to the World Tree.

Having read more closely, it seems that the strong claim is different, but not dramatically so.

In the D&D cosmology, the Astral Plane surrounds all the other​

planes in a shapeless cloud, allowing astral travel directly from one​

plane to any other. But Toril’s Astral Plane shares the treelike shape​

of the cosmology as a whole. Because of this arrangement, it is dif-​

ficult (though not completely impossible) to jump from branch to​

branch of the tree—that is, to cross directly from one Inner Plane​

or Outer Plane to another. (See Traveling the Planes, below, for​

more information.) It is more natural—and far safer—to travel​

between the Inner Planes or Outer Planes by way of the trunk​

(the Material Plane). As part of its ability to alter the nature of​

its realm, a deity can forge a direct connection to any other deity’s​

realm, so long as both deities agree. Apart from divine influence,​

however, such direct connections are impossible.​

​

Travel from one Outer Plane to another is slightly more com-​

plicated. Normal astral travel cannot take a character directly​

from one plane to another except by way of the Material Plane.​

A character or monster can use plane shift to move directly from​

the Material Plane to any other plane or vice versa, but not from​

one Inner Plane or Outer Plane to a different Inner Plane or Outer​

Plane.​

3e Player's Guide to Faerun, p 139-140 (two separate but related sections)

So, is difficult (though not completely impossible) doesn't entail is impossible. In fact the former contradicts the latter!

What might make Astral Travel difficult? One thing could be the beliefs that a person has. Another could be some sort of divine decree.

Both those things would also apply to the operation of a spell.

The beliefs that a person has can also affect which portals are accessible to them:

Most portals need a portal key to activate them - a specific object that has some affinity for what’s on the other side the portal, or sometimes merely a word, a gesture, or the right state of mind. (4e MotP, p 26)​

All these things can fairly easily explain why some people, given their beliefs, experience the arrangement of Outer Planes as a Tree, others as a Wheel (with portals linking the "adjacent" planes, which is what the original MotP describes), and others as simply islands in an Astral Sea.

I make no claim about whether this would result in satisfying RPGing.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

So, is difficult (though not completely impossible) doesn't entail is impossible. In fact the former contradicts the latter!

What might make Astral Travel difficult? One thing could be the beliefs that a person has. Another could be some sort of divine decree.

Both those things would also apply to the operation of a spell.

The beliefs that a person has can also affect which portals are accessible to them:

Most portals need a portal key to activate them - a specific object that has some affinity for what’s on the other side the portal, or sometimes merely a word, a gesture, or the right state of mind. (4e MotP, p 26)​

All these things can fairly easily explain why some people, given their beliefs, experience the arrangement of Outer Planes as a Tree, others as a Wheel (with portals linking the "adjacent" planes, which is what the original MotP describes), and others as simply islands in an Astral Sea.

I make no claim about whether this would result in satisfying RPGing.

The text explicitly says plane shift cannot be used to travel directly from one Outer (or Inner) plane to another in Toril's cosmology.

Is that true, or is it not true?

 

[pemerton]

The text explicitly says plane shift cannot be used to travel directly from one Outer (or Inner) plane to another in Toril's cosmology.

Is that true, or is it not true?

It's a work of fiction, written around 20 years ago for some purpose then.

The conversation of this thread, as I understand it, is about making sense of some further things written about 10 years ago for the 5e D&D game. That more recent stuff tells us (again, as I understand it) that these different cosmological structures are "ways of perceiving/interpreting" the planes.

So the notion that plane shift cannot be used to travel directly from one Outer Plane to another is something that is - according to the more recent work - a "way of perceiving/interpreting" the planes. And how might it be such? I've offered one answer - because a plane traveller's beliefs/preconceptions affect how their spells, their Astral travel, etc function.

 

[Yaarel]

Okay.

How can that be the case AND ALSO, at one and the same time, in one and the same place (Toril), in one and the same sense, there is not, at all, any restriction whatsoever?

There is always a restriction.

There is never not a restriction.

That's the thing I'm catching on here. Either there is a restriction on Toril's Astral Plane, or there isn't.

If there is--if it is, as the book in question says, a "channeled" transitive plane--then it can't be the case that FOR TORIL, the Astral Plane really truly does exist everywhere and allow you to go anywhere you like etc., etc. If there isn't such a restriction, then the World Tree model is simply, straight-up, objectively wrong about the nature of reality. It's not "oh that's just one story we tell", it's just...flat-out incorrect on an enormous swathe of how reality works for Toril.

The setting itself that uses the Tree map enforces the restriction.

Normally, no spell on Toril allows the caster to "gate" to the Astral Sea. One can gate to Arvandor. But from Arvandor, one can only gate back to Toril and nowhere else.

The setting is aware there are other places one might want to gate, but the setting makes it "difficult" to get there.

The restriction is always on, but there are "difficult" ways to bypass the restriction.

Only one of these things can be true. This is a hard binary. Either there is a restriction, or there isn't. If there is, then the World Tree model is simply correct and the other models that claim you can plane shift directly between any two Outer/Inner planes are just straight-up wrong about that, or there isn't, and the World Tree model is simply straight-up wrong about that.

There is no binary. The assumption of a binary is incorrect.

The Tree makes "difficult" what what is easy and unrestricted in Wheel and Axis.

There is no in-between here. We're talking about one specific plane (so it is the same place). There is only one possible sense, either you can do the thing, or you can't. And we're talking about a single specific time (late 15th century by the current FR calendar, IIRC?), so that doesn't affect things either. We have two competing claims:

1. "You cannot, even in principle, plane shift directly between two different planes in the late 15th century on Toril."
2. "You can, at least in principle, plane shift directly between two different planes in the late 15th century on Toril."

One or the other of these claims must be true. The World Tree claims the former, very explicitly. The World Axis and Great Wheel claim the latter.

In the two setting assumptions, the difference is narrative.

1. The Weave never allows the gate spell to be cast to a restricted destination.

2. The Weave only in special situations allows the gate spell to be cast to a restricted destination.

Neither behavior of spellcasting is relevant to the existence of the Astral Sea. The Astral Sea exists in both cases, but the Weave magic cannot easily access it.

The Astral Sea exists in the Tree cosmology, and the Tree has restrictive "lines" passing thru it.

Hence, it is not possible that all three cosmologies can be said to reasonably reflect the observable reality of Toril, the default setting of 5.x (even though Greyhawk is getting renewed interest). Even before we start looking at how the World Tree claims there are specific planes that just straight-up don't exist in the World Axis or Great Wheel, and likewise that there are planes that exist in the Great Wheel that don't exist in the other two etc.!

Now, maybe we can say these are all ad-hoc models getting constantly revised and updated as new discoveries are made, or as changes to reality occur. If that's the case, they should in fact explain that, rather than just leaving it up to implication that "well, the models only make sense if we the readers continuously retcon them, so obviously we have to continuously retcon them." That is, at the very least, extremely sloppy worldbuilding.

The Tree doesnt reasonably reflect observable reality of the multiverse.

The Tree only reflects the passageways that are permitted to and from Toril.

The rest of the multiverse is censored from the observers of Toril.

The Tree cosmology acknowledges the existence of places beyond the Tree, except it is difficult to bypass the restrictions that prevent casters from arriving there.