4e Creatures, Not Scary?

[Pbartender]

I am not trying to degenerate this thread into yet another edition war, but how is this unique to only 4e? Even in 3e, I could easily customize monsters by playing around with their feat allotment, templating or tacking on additional class lvs. Heck, you want a chimeric chimera, there are actually rules for this...

The difference is that in 3E, players were familiar with all the possible changes you could make to a monster. Feats, templates, and class levels are all tools that 3E player characters can use. Once a player realizes, "Oh, it's just a goblin with the half-dragon template and couple levels of Sorcerer," then there's really no surprises.

In 4E, the bad guys use unique abilities that are outside the province of player characters. The suggestions for customizing monsters encourages continuing that practice.

Say I want a Giant Toad (or Giant Frog) ala The Village of Hommlet...

I start with the stats for a Deathjump Spider... Perhaps change the climb speed into a swim speed. Finally, change its bite attack into something more like a Roper's Tentacle/Reel/Tentacle Grab combo to emulate a long sticky tongue. Done.

Modifying monster is not really unique to 4E, but 4E's means of doing it seems to preserve more of the mystery behind what a monster can or cannot do.

 

[Umbran]

Modifying monster is not really unique to 4E, but 4E's means of doing it seems to preserve more of the mystery behind what a monster can or cannot do.

I don';t think it does so any more than another edition.

If your players are the sort to read the monster books, they'll recognize the powers quickly enough, no matter the edition. Meanwhile, in 3e, if your players weren't the type to read all the books and memorize everything, surprising them is easy as cake.

I thus conclude that the issue of mystery is more based on player knowledge of the system than the system itself.

 

[fba827]

A set of stats coming to attack you isn't scary, it's the build-up, anticipation, general ambience, and fear of the unknown that make a monster scarey...

so (for me) it's been the same in every edition -- it's not a matter of saying a creatures name and expecting the players to be in awe and fear, but rather those other aforementioned factors.

 

[Glyfair]

I thus conclude that the issue of mystery is more based on player knowledge of the system than the system itself.

A lot of the potential mystery is in the ability of the GM to improvise on the system. Most of the potential here goes on the GM - his temperament and ability. However, I will argue the system players a role.

I will argue that 4E has an advantage of 3E in this area, possibly a small one. One of the concepts of 3E is that there is a structure to the system and you should try to hold to that system. 4E is more loose in the assumptions. It has less of a structure as far as monster design goals (less things you are supposed to check against for balance purposes).

Yes, any GM can break the 3E "rules" to create surprise. However, given the systems, I think it is more likely a GM is going to break the rules to create a surprise with 4E. The system encourages it more, and there are less rules to "break" in the first place.

 

[SlyFlourish]

"A set of stats coming to attack you isn't scary, it's the build-up, anticipation, general ambience, and fear of the unknown that make a monster scarey..."

But imagine if you do all that build-up, anticipation, and fear of the unknown only to learn that the guy's a pushover who doesn't even begin to threaten the party. Stats aren't scary but they need to back up the threat.

 

[chaotix42]

Yes, any GM can break the 3E "rules" to create surprise. However, given the systems, I think it is more likely a GM is going to break the rules to create a surprise with 4E. The system encourages it more, and there are less rules to "break" in the first place.

Agreed. With monster rules being so concise and condensed, I feel my ability to create new and unique monsters has been expanded.

As for scary monsters, my six 6th level PCs soiled themselves when they were thrust into an arena battle with 3 deafened displacer beasts and 2 harpys! Opening round, displacer beasts go first:

- Displacer beasts move 12
- 2 flank the warlord and unleash 2 bites and 4 tentacle attacks
- Warlord has 4 HPs left

I lol'ed!

 

[DandD]

Aren't liches supposed to be elite anyway? So that means he should have some backup, like, how about some ghouls like they were mentioned before? Or a vampire servant with his own spawn minions coming to the aid of his master.
And of course, demons and devils that were bound by the lich some centuries ago and unleashed for the eventuality that a bunch of adventurers are coming to destroy your phylactery (just keep an eye on these traitorous demons and devlis). A war devil and a squad of devil legionnaires, that are acting as the bodyguard of said eladrin lich. Or a Glabezru demon, and a bunch of evistros. There's loads of reasons why the lich has companies.
In 4th edition, it's all about teams fighting each another.
Solo monsters are supposed to have multiple attacks, or several triggers to whatever attack effect the players can come up with, so that they counter several times per round, even if they're only alone.
Unless your lich is some kind of four-armed lich-monstrosity that blasts four times necro-lasers at his adversaries, he shouldn't be fighting against the team alone.
When the lich is starting to stun/push/debuffing the party, while they're in a bloody melee with somebody else, then your players are going to fear that guy. Even more if he retreats from battle, and engages them when he's fully restored again, while the group is still recuperating from their last battle.
Think of a murderous stalker in those horror movies. And now, let that guy have friends helping him.
The ultra-damage monster is not really scary, but rather annoying, if he drops the entire party in two rounds of combat, by somply using two 3rd edition meteor blasts (or worse) spells at the party.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Well, while I have yet to really get into 4E--I'm expecting to start a 4E campaign in the new year--my players universally fear *Orcs* in my 3.5campaigns...

*Hobgoblins always give them problems...

*Beastmen terrify them...

*Vampires make them sweat...

Let alone the giants, dragons, chimeras, hydras, and the really strange, bizarre monsters they may encounter.

I tweak them routinely with extra classes, templates, special feats and powers, wierd mutations, etc.

The players have long since learned that whatever they read in the Monster Manuals...whatever knowledge their characters have--is often only the barest, *basic* knowledge.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Negflar2099]

I scared the crap out of my party with a swarm of pixies. If you've seen it they were a lot like the "tooth fairies" in Hellboy 2, all teeth and butterfly wings. It was a hard fight. From now on all I have to do is suggest they hear the flap of wings in the wind and my party freaks out.

Of course that was a creature I made myself. If you're looking for actual 4e creatures that are scary well anything can be scary if you play it right.

From a narrative standpoint a swarm of zombies and corruption corpses freaked my players out to no end. From the standpoint of really mechanically tough monster that totally kicked our butts well the owlbear was surprisingly hard for my party to take down. I threw in some satyr pals and it was a tough fight that definitely made my players scared they were going to lose their characters.

 

[jdrakeh]

I have to agree with those who say 'try them in play before you pass judgement'. Numerous AD&D monsters (such as the bulette, displacer beast, and otyugh) look utterly hillarious as depicted. I find it hard to believe that looking at those drawings and stat blocks did much to scare anybody.

That having been said, in actual play, some of those goofy, laugh-inducing, monsters of AD&D will kick your rear end and good. The bulette, frex, was never consider anything more than a silly-looking joke in my first AD&D group for the better part of two years. . . and then we had to fight one.