4e Creatures, Not Scary?

[delericho]

I will argue that 4E has an advantage of 3E in this area, possibly a small one. One of the concepts of 3E is that there is a structure to the system and you should try to hold to that system. 4E is more loose in the assumptions.

Yes, I have to agree with this. Also, creating (and advancing) monsters does seem to be easier in 4e, which as also a slight advantage.

However, it is a slight advantage - 3e has many thousands of creatures in print at this point, so finding something to surprise players with isn't exactly hard.

 

[Pbartender]

If your players are the sort to read the monster books, they'll recognize the powers quickly enough, no matter the edition. Meanwhile, in 3e, if your players weren't the type to read all the books and memorize everything, surprising them is easy as cake.

I thus conclude that the issue of mystery is more based on player knowledge of the system than the system itself.

I agree. However...

Due to the way 3E creatures were built very often using the same Feats, Spell Effects, Class Levels and Special Ablities, a player could still gain knowledge of monster abilities even without reading the monster books just by being familiar with what his own character can do.

 

[Raven Crowking]

The players have long since learned that whatever they read in the Monster Manuals...whatever knowledge their characters have--is often only the barest, *basic* knowledge.

Indeed.

I tell them that the MM contains "rumours your characters might know, which may or may not be true."


RC

 

[Gothmog]

I agree with others who have said it is largely how you present the monsters to your players that determines whether your players fear a given creature or not. It doesn't really have a lot to do with stats or damage, but establishing mood, atmosphere, and a situation that works well with the creature's abilities.

That said, I'm finding that its a lot easier to make fearsome creatures and combinations of creatures with 4e than it was in previous editions. Of course, in previous editions, creatures that level-drained were always feared, but if the party knew they were going to face those sorts of things, they would stock up on Lesser Restoration or Restoration spells, and the threat was largely marginalized. In 3e and before, the most feared critters were usually shadows and wraiths due to their ability to move through walls and terrain and drain strength or levels from the frontline characters, leaving the whole party more vulnerable. For most other critters (including dragons, mind flayers, etc) there were anti-buff spells available that pretty much negated the threat of the critter, making it a sack of XP for the most part. And while straight-out damage could kill a character, I didn't ever see it happen that much- it was usually a special ability or spell-like effect that save-or-lose/rocket tagged a PC that killed them.

With 4e, each creature does less individual damage, but the critters themselves are a lot more dangerous- higher HP, better AC and defenses, good init, and nasty special abilities make almost any monster a more credible threat stat-wise. In addition, 4e pushes using a mix of critters as a core assumption for the first time, and some creatures are incredibly dangerous when used together. 4e also doesn't have the anti-buff spells to take the teeth away from monsters like 3.x and earlier editions did. These facts, combined with the teamwork aspect of play 4e encourages makes 4e fights with monsters REALLY nasty, and if a PC gets separated from the group, his life expectancy is a few minutes at best.

In the campaign I'm currently running, the PCs are terrified of ghouls, dark creepers, and zombies (normal, corruption corpses, and chillborn). The battle in question was in a graveyard, and the PCs were trying to make it to a tomb to stop a necromancer from establishing a conduit to the Shadowfell, allowing him to make a nearly endless stream of undead. The encounter was with 8 zombie rotters (minions), 2 zombies, a chillborn, a corruption corpse, a mad wraith, 2 dark creepers, and 2 ghouls (1979 XP). The group was 7th level, and had 7 PCs, so it shouldn't have been too bad according to the numbers (2100 XP being the standard). However, some bad dice luck, getting separated, the mad wraith causing confusion by making PCs attack each other, and the interaction of the monster special abilities (ghouls and chillborn immobilizing and the dark creepers sneak attack and ability to Dark Step) made this one of the roughest encounters I've ever seen in my gaming career. Add to this it was in dim lighting (night) in a very cluttered graveyard and the zombies acted as walls to hem in PCs and restrict movement, and it was a near TPK. Fleeting shapes moving through shadows, and zombies and ghouls send my group into a near-panic now, even though by the book, those critters shouldn't be bad for a 9th level group. Part of this fear is due to the way I described the situation and the mood I'd crafted, but quite a bit was due to the interaction of these critters in a fight as well.

 

[davethegame]

Hi Dave!

But what happens when all of that storytelling fear turns into a lich firing a pea-shooter that just annoys people? I just don't see the lich as written being very exciting in combat and a creature that isn't exciting in combat is going to be a let-down when you try to explain his great power.

Too often in 4e I've given the party the "this is clearly the most dangerous foe you have faced" and then they kill him in three rounds.

Granted, playing 4 levels higher might work better. I bet a 24th level dragon is a lot tougher with level 20 PCs.

Hey Mike!

I see what you mean about the monster's abilities no longer being the one big blast, but I also think there's a lot of room to use the other aspects of 4e encounters. First, the Lich (as an elite) probably isn't going to be alone, and his entire group should be what's fearsome. He can use the blast that stuns and command all the other monsters to go after the one stunned character. That sounds pretty scary to me.

Plus, the encounter area could contain plenty of contingencies the Lich has set up, from magical traps to poison to all kinds of things that make confronting him a very risky proposition.

There are other story ways to do it- for example, just last night, my players reached the end of the Well of Demons in Thunderspire Labyrinth. What could have been a normal encounter against a Gnoll Warlock and some demonic meatshields turned into a race to prevent the entire Mountain from being taken over by a demonic force. My players knew that they were just one roll away from losing when they finally took him down, and were sweating it the whole time. Again, it's not the monsters' powers that make them scary anymore... it's how they fit into the story.

 

[SlyFlourish]

"There are other story ways to do it- for example, just last night, my players reached the end of the Well of Demons in Thunderspire Labyrinth. What could have been a normal encounter against a Gnoll Warlock and some demonic meatshields turned into a race to prevent the entire Mountain from being taken over by a demonic force. My players knew that they were just one roll away from losing when they finally took him down, and were sweating it the whole time. Again, it's not the monsters' powers that make them scary anymore... it's how they fit into the story."

In our version of Thunderspire, in the Well of Demons, one of our PCs got trapped in the ritualistic portal and got thrown into the Shadowfell. The player tired of his warlord and wanted to play a wizard. Now we have an NPC wandering the Shadowfell. I think it might end up like the end of "Prince of Darkness" with the guy coming back as a warlord of hell.

While its the party of monsters that matters, I think the BBEG needs to be feared in particular. A lot of elites in the monster manual are fearsome but I think the lich in particular is underpowered. Even just replacing some of his limited attacks with some other evil-versions of wizard spells like acid cloud and evards black tentacles would help. That, Time Stop, and a minor action damage dealer (like the chilling touch) would make him a lot better.

Here's hoping we see some of this in the Grave Book.

 

[chaotix42]

The thing I love about liches is you can hide their phylacteries in such wonderful places and in such terrific forms. Now they even take their items with them when they perish! There was something pitiful about a lich respawning with no items and an axe to grind.

That standard lich in the MM is underwhelming, though. I would at least throw the Wizard template on him. Drop a cool implement on him, and maybe a wonderous item or something.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

There are a lot of ways to inspire fear. For instance the most feared location in my campaign was for a long time an old orc-infested dwarven mine complex. First of all the dwarves built the place with all the cunning and skill a dwarf could muster to be the nastiest defensive terrain possible. The orcs moved in and their bosses picked up where the dwarves left off.

Most every bit of the place is filled with danger for any attacker. Just getting in the gates means navigating through blind allies, crossing interlocking fields of fire from crosslets and murder holes while crossing spiked pits, etc. Just when you think you've reached a safe area? A secret sally port opens up behind you and that upper gallery overhead comes crashing down. It just goes on and on, and the orcs may not be very disciplined, but they know how to fight and they fight dirty. There's none of that usual "we just use our by the book attacks". Nah, if you run under the gallery? The orcs will definitely drop rocks on your head!

I dare say that even high paragon tier parties are none to eager to enter the place, and none of the monsters are especially high level or tweaked to any degree. A few of them have some unusual equipment, but that's about it. The party just never knows what the enemy is going to pull out of its hat next in terms of tactics. That mine is their home turf and when your the home team, you have a big advantage.

So I say fear comes from any number of things, cunning monsters, sheer numbers or toughness, dangerous and unknown terrain. There is rarely a NEED to put fear in pcs with rocket type killer powers. I'd always reserve those for a very few 'name brand' monsters like a basilisk, which you just KNOW can wipe you out with a single hit (and who wouldn't run in fear from that).

 

[Shemeska]

Well for myself the damage a monster could dish out never made a monster creepy or scary. It was all in how the monster behaved or described. Basically the narrative around it.

I very much agree, the feeling I get from monsters comes first from its description and flavor, secondly from its art, and in a very remote third place its stats.

However, having said that, the relative absence of flavor text given to monsters in 4e (as typified by the 4e MM) would make them rather difficult to find evocative or even remotely scary. I look at the average 4e monster and I see a collection of stats (geared almost entirely towards combat with nothing beyond that) some paltry descriptive text, and some art (the recycled artwork in 4e is another topic entirely).

Now if they want to change things and gather my attention with the monsters (a good concept is a good concept regardless of game or edition) they need to bother to write something significantly better than I saw in the MM.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

It is funny cause while we agree, I like the lack of fluff for the same reason. I find that simply has stats means I can simply drop monster mechanics into whatever monster and narrative I want. So I don't have to craft the narrative around the monster just find the mechanics to fit the narrative.