D&D 4E 4e Design and JRR Tolkien

[Hussar]

Certainly, fantasy film predates the 80s by quite a long stretch. Does the name "Ray Harryhausen" ring a bell? How about Nosferatu? There were, what, a dozen Tarzan films starring Johnny Weissmuller alone.

Fantasy does not mean what you seem to think it means.

Tarzan is not fantasy. Nosferatu is not fantasy. Ray Harryhausen was sometimes fantasy. Note, you're already into the 50's and 60's by the time Harryhausen was making movies.

The problem with these conversations is that people tend to make wild stabs at what the genre actually is. RC is including all sorts of movies and books that aren't even remotely considered part of fantasy.

But, honestly, I think RC has me on ignore, so, I'm pretty much talking to myself here.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Heh, I never made that connection. Is it confirmed that it was an influence on "V for vendetta"? I love the theme of "V for vendetta" as well as that of "Count of Monte Cristo", so it seems to fit.

/M

Let's see....apart from the structural and thematic similarity, the fact that V's favourite film is The Count of Monte Cristo, and that both V and Evy equate V with Edmond Dantès (the protagonist of Monte Cristo) -- V by taking his role while watching the film, Evy by saying that V was Edmond Dantès.....perhaps not so much. It may all be just a big coincidence. But neither V nor Edmond Dantès believe in coincidences, and in this case neither do I.

This might interest you: http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/2006/03/the_count_of_mo.html

RC

 

[JohnSnow]

Gimli was also made relectant in the Movie. In the book it was Gimli who wanted to go to Moria and was realy pushing for that option, while in the film he was scared of going.

You're misremembering. Gandalf doesn't want to go to the Mines of Moria. Gimli has several quotes:

Gimli: "Gandalf, far be it from me to question, but it seems to me we are taking the long way around. Why should we not make for the Mines of Moria?"
Gimli: "If we cannot go over the mountain, then let us go under it. Let us pass through the mines of Moria."
Gimli: "My cousin Balin will give us a royal welcome."

I have gripes with the use of Gimli for comic relief, but he was NOT reluctant to go to Moria. He was advocating for it from the get-go. Just as in the book. Did Jackson make him more comedic? Yes. Reluctant? No.

But don't get me started on what PJ did to Faramir...

 

[The Little Raven]

But don't get me started on what PJ did to Faramir...

Made him more than a cardboard caricature of a hero?

I love Tolkein's creation of language and his construction of culture, but his character development is incredibly weak (when it actually exists... Faramir and Aragorn are perfect examples of characters that never actually development, since they remain 100% the same from the time they're introduced to the end of the book).

 

[rkwoodard]

didn't Gimili

You're misremembering. Gandalf doesn't want to go to the Mines of Moria. Gimli has several quotes:

Gimli: "Gandalf, far be it from me to question, but it seems to me we are taking the long way around. Why should we not make for the Mines of Moria?"
Gimli: "If we cannot go over the mountain, then let us go under it. Let us pass through the mines of Moria."
Gimli: "My cousin Balin will give us a royal welcome."

I have gripes with the use of Gimli for comic relief, but he was NOT reluctant to go to Moria. He was advocating for it from the get-go. Just as in the book. Did Jackson make him more comedic? Yes. Reluctant? No.

But don't get me started on what PJ did to Faramir...

I believe in the book Gimli was reluctant to go into the mines. He was nervous because he knew the dwarves had lost contact with the outside world.

But ditto on both the comedic treatment he got int the movie and the Faramir treatment (in TT).

RK

RK

 

[The Little Raven]

I believe in the book Gimli was reluctant to go into the mines. He was nervous because he knew the dwarves had lost contact with the outside world.

Gimli was eager to enter the Mines of Moria in the book, because he believed they'd find a recently established colony led by Balin. He didn't know they were dead until they entered the place and were trapped inside by the Watcher in the Water.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I believe in the book Gimli was reluctant to go into the mines. He was nervous because he knew the dwarves had lost contact with the outside world.

If by "reluctant" you mean "eager", yes.

Gimli was, however, reluctant to walk the Paths of the Dead (in both book & movie).

RC

 

[Belgarath]

That was my main bone of contention with the films, is relegating Gimli to comic relief. All of that ho ho ho and falling down all the time – embarrassing. In the books he was a bad-ass, but in the films he was like a crap Santa, but meanwhile they felt the need to elevate Legolas to demigod-hood.

I will have to agree with you on that one Samurai. It seems that the dwarfs in any D&D/fantasy type film has become nothing but comic relief. Reading LotR and other books like it, the Dwarfs were a force to be reckoned with. The were very strong, determined, and loyal.

As a side bit - where did the idea of bearded dwarf women come from? I remember reading one of the 2nd edition books that gave a very nice explanation of it. Some of the clans wore kilts and it was assumed they were skirts and the warriors therefore female.

 

[JohnSnow]

I will have to agree with you on that one Samurai. It seems that the dwarfs in any D&D/fantasy type film has become nothing but comic relief. Reading LotR and other books like it, the Dwarfs were a force to be reckoned with. The were very strong, determined, and loyal.

As a side bit - where did the idea of bearded dwarf women come from? I remember reading one of the 2nd edition books that gave a very nice explanation of it. Some of the clans wore kilts and it was assumed they were skirts and the warriors therefore female.

Tolkien. It's in Appendix A of The Return of the King. I'll quote it here:

It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other people cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women, and that the Dwarves 'grow out of stone.'

Since most dwarf-men are bearded, the inability to distinguish them from dwarf-men strongly implies that dwarf women are also bearded.

 

[PeterWeller]

Fantasy does not mean what you seem to think it means.

Tarzan is not fantasy. Nosferatu is not fantasy. Ray Harryhausen was sometimes fantasy. Note, you're already into the 50's and 60's by the time Harryhausen was making movies.

The problem with these conversations is that people tend to make wild stabs at what the genre actually is. RC is including all sorts of movies and books that aren't even remotely considered part of fantasy.

But, honestly, I think RC has me on ignore, so, I'm pretty much talking to myself here.

I think you're the one who's incorrect here. A vampire and a man raised by apes are both totally fantasy. Supernatural horror is fantasy as is fantastical adventure, even if lacking in overtly fantastic tropes.

It sounds like your definition is based solely by what shelf a book sits on at Barnes & Noble's. However, it's much more complicated and nebulous than that. The fantasy section only contains what is marketed as fantasy, just as the western section only contains what is marketed as westerns. Titles that are highly fantastic may find themselves in the fiction/lit. section because of marketing. That's why publishers refer to fantasy, science fiction, westerns, etc. as categories and not genres. They realize that their marketing conventions do not define genres. Two books that lavishly illustrate this are The Tin Drum and The House of Spirits. Both are fantasies to their very core, employing numerous fantasy tropes in the telling of their stories, but you'd never find them in the fantasy section because of the high/low culture divide and how it affects the marketing of certain books.

Your entitled to your rigid interpretation of what is and what isn't fantasy, but to pretend that it isn't incredibly nebulous, open to debate, and largely a matter of personal opinion is inconsiderate and incorrect. Hard science fiction fans are going to argue to you that Dune and the Star Wars films are fantasy, not science fiction, and they're going to bring up a lot of good points in support of their claim because viewed from certain angles, those stories are much more fantasy than science fiction.