D&D 4E 4e Design and JRR Tolkien

[gizmo33]

Red Dawn was, of course, an expression of its time's fears while also an expression of American heroic ideals in counter to those fears.

Well yes, it's a story after all. But it's not "escapism" when it dwells on/expands the very anxieties that your statement implies people were trying to escape from - whether it's invasion by the Soviets, or the ostracism of returning war veterans, or whatever.

I wouldn't consider any of these idealizations of the past.

Me neither, I think we're saying the same thing here. What I was trying to establish earlier is that the cause and effect of America's over all "mood" vs. the popularity of fantasy literature (much of it British anyway) was something I didn't see a clear connection with. AFAICT people seemed and seem in the mood for all sorts of kinds of entertainment and it's possible that the most popular stuff is simply that which is done the best.

For example, say you would like to recapture the glory of Southern Gentility, but you don't want the baggage of slavery casting a pall over everything. You can create a fantasy world where the positives of Antebellum Southern life exists without the negatives.

That's an interesting point. I think that the risk of being put to death by a king for what you write or being ostracized socially for what you write probably have some similarities in the way people work around it. I'm not an expert on the period but I wonder how much of Arthurian Legend, Robin Hood, Charlemange, etc. stories were told with similar motives.

and it would seem like they hit a low point in popularity towards the end of the Nineteenth century, though there was a great resurgence in the early Twentieth.

Wasn't the 1890s the time of Gothic literature? Hopefully this doesn't lead us back to Frankenstein, Dracula, etc. not being fantasy. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the stories of Arthur, Robin Hood, Roland, the Illiad etc. were basically on the bookshelves of every young boy who could afford them. Wasn't Bullfinch's mythology published at this time? I have some compilations of "fantasy" (I believe the book is titled "Treasury of Fantasy") from exactly this time period, I think, though that doesn't argue for popularity. What is the basis of your opinion on the existence of the low-point?

 

[Desdichado]

There is a lot of good non-mainstream fantasy being produced today. Even now, though, much of it is mired in a "literary ghetto" where it doesn't get the attention it deserves.

I love the term "literary ghetto."

Still, I'd say that the position of fantasy today isn't so much a ghetto as it is a suburb. It's not going to be as sexy as mainstream, certainly, but it isn't frowned upon nearly as much as it used to be.

Of course, fantasy books tend to often look an awful lot alike, and those that try to push out in new directions do occasionally get shunted off to the ghetto. Or, like Neil Gaimen and China Mieville, they reach for mainstream success and to some extent find it.

 

[PeterWeller]

What is the basis of your opinion on the existence of the low-point?

The popularity of Naturalism and Realism at the time, as well as their seeming to be published in much greater numbers and variety at the time. It seems like for a brief couple of years, interest in science and the real world pushed interest in the fantastic to the corners. I should adjust my time frame; however, it was more like the very early Twentieth than the late Nineteenth.

Also, I'm not qualified* to really make that argument (about crisis influencing the popularity of speculative fiction), but it would seem that such an argument could exist, considering the similar arguments for the rise of Pulp (escapism after the horror of WWI) and the similar rise of Sci Fi in the fifties as a response to "Red Scare."

*Well, I'm sure I am, but I'm too lazy to collect the sources to make such an argument.

 

[Raven Crowking]

So, IMO, it was Star Wars that opened the door for fantasy to become mainstream. Everyone else just capitalized on it. That's why so many years passed between the publication of The Lord of the Rings and the next BIG fantasy hit.

There is something to be said for this view, but one should also note that, for example, Tarzan was a huge hit prior to SW or LotR. There were, literally, over a dozen Tarzan movies made with just the first actor to play the part. And they did well.

There may be no elves, but there are mangani, ant men, dinosaurs, other hominid species, mind-controlling jewels, etc. in Tarzan. EDIT: Oh yeah, and let's not forget the witchdoctor who made Tarzan immortal......

ERB, like George Lucas, and the publishers who promoted SoS, knew the value of good marketting.

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

I love the term "literary ghetto."

Me too.

Still, I'd say that the position of fantasy today isn't so much a ghetto as it is a suburb. It's not going to be as sexy as mainstream, certainly, but it isn't frowned upon nearly as much as it used to be.

A lot of mainstream fantasy is found shelved (obviously) in the fantasy section. There is still a very clear debt to Tolkein in most mainstream fantasy. In fact, fantasy that veers too far from Tolkein often ends up, instead, in the "Literature" section.

Of course, being in the Lit section doesn't sell as well, overall, as being in the Fantasy section (or they'd label every Fantasy book as Lit). This is why it might seem that "fantasy books tend to often look an awful lot alike, and those that try to push out in new directions do occasionally get shunted off to the ghetto." Essentially, publishing tends to want to serve you up the same tried-and-true experience time and time again. It is, in many ways, similar to McDonalds. What matters isn't the quality (beyond a certain theshold) , but that what is delivered is what is expected, which leads to quantity purchase.

Some really great stuff, of course, rises to the top out of this bog of mediocrity. But that doesn't mean that the bog of mediocrity doesn't exist.

I think that it would do us all a great service if we opened a thread to point to the great fantasy that we find that isn't on the fantasy shelves. I think I might just start that thread myself.

RC

 

[gizmo33]

I should adjust my time frame; however, it was more like the very early Twentieth than the late Nineteenth

It's possible, I would think, to get a distorted view of what's interesting about the past based on what people of the present wish to study. For example, if one is cover the art history of the early 20th century it might be that something like "Art Realism" might be covered because there were interesting (to the present) examples. This argument goes both ways though - I could point out that the Wizard of Oz series of books were being published in the early Twentieth Centuries. Of course that's not an indication of who was buying them, and assuming that Oz was popular then as now might possibly be an anachronism based on the success of the movies. What I'm saying is that if current study popularly focuses on a certain trend at a certain time period, it doesn't mean that it was popular then (and, as I said, this could support either side of the argument).

Also, I wonder about the medium. How much poetry, for example, should factor into the overall question of how much fantasy was part of people's consciousness at the time period (I'm thinking of Poe). It might be anachronistic to assume that paper-back novels (if such even existed) was the main vehicle of satisfying the public's demand for stories of magic and monsters.

 

[Desdichado]

There is something to be said for this view, but one should also note that, for example, Tarzan was a huge hit prior to SW or LotR. There were, literally, over a dozen Tarzan movies made with just the first actor to play the part. And they did well.

There may be no elves, but there are mangani, ant men, dinosaurs, other hominid species, mind-controlling jewels, etc. in Tarzan. EDIT: Oh yeah, and let's not forget the witchdoctor who made Tarzan immortal......

ERB, like George Lucas, and the publishers who promoted SoS, knew the value of good marketting.

I should note, though, that ERB was on a bit of a nadir at the time period we're discussing. After his death in the late 40s, his works went out of print for two decades or so, made a brief resurgence in the 60s and were fading again.

In the 80s, when I was old enough to remember browsing the stacks, the reprints of Tarzan with the Neil Adams and Boris Vallejo covers were all over the place, though, as well as his Barsoom book reprints with the Michael Whelan covers.

ERB seems to almost go through cyclic periods of renewed interest and general apathy. For what it's worth, now that fantasy has come forward and gained a lot of mainstream success, I notice that ERB is---again---out of print.

I suspect that part of ERB's success was there not being sufficient new alternatives to him. I mean, he was almost as dated in the 60s as he is now, so why isn't he in print now? And I don't mean that as an insult (after LotR, A Princess of Mars is my favorite fantasy book of all time) just that in today's market, the need for ERB reprints is just not there. There's so much other fantasy out there to tempt readers in stead.

EDIT: I'd really love to have poster-sized prints of all those Adams covers. Hot damn.

 

[PeterWeller]

Good point about Oz, but remember, Baum tried his hand as a Naturalist/Realist writer (as well as an Indian hating journalist, but that's for another thread) before writing the Oz books. Also, Oz was immensely popular; it was the Harry Potter of its age (or more correctly, Harry Potter is the Oz of our age). At the same time, IIRC, Crane, James, and Norris (amongst others) for a brief time were the best sellers, and this could point to a brief downswing in fantasy's popularity. Also, while I know it was immensely popular, I'm not sure if Oz appealed to adults or if it was strictly a children's phenomenon.

 

[PeterWeller]

ERB seems to almost go through cyclic periods of renewed interest and general apathy. For what it's worth, now that fantasy has come forward and gained a lot of mainstream success, I notice that ERB is---again---out of print.

Not just that, but he seems to be one of the only "Greats" to not see reprints. RE Howard and HP Lovecraft are to be found in any bookstore. I've seen reprints of DeCamp, and B&N released She and King Solomon's Mines in those nice hard bound volumes. I think even Lieber is getting reprinted. Where's the love for Barsoom?

 

[Desdichado]

Hmm.. that's a good point. And with the prospect of a Barsoom movie (faltering, but still prospective all the same) floating around, you'd think someone would jump on those.

Heck, they're public domain even. No licensing fee.

Well, at least for the first 5-6 books.