D&D 4E 4e Design and JRR Tolkien

[Nifft]

3rd, at best…

Watery tarts are broken.

-- N

 

[Aris Dragonborn]

Gandalf also runs from goblins and wargs. He's a literary device and the problem I have with trying to assess his power is that he's really just around to dispense advice. He's not being "played as a PC" in DnD terms, as he's often elsewhere during important parts of the adventure. Also, as an angel-like being I've always gotten some vague sense as to unstated limitations that he has on his ability to act.

IIRC, Gandalf was forbidden from using his powers in direct confilct with Sauron (and possibly his servants) by the Valar; his purpose in Middle-Earth was to rally and inspire the people to stand against Sauron, and (hopefully) defeat him. Should be in the Silmarillion (I'll see if I can dig up a reference).

 

[Baby Samurai]

Watery tarts are broken.

Only when they (moistened bints) lob scimitars at you…

 

[WayneLigon]

I actually like Jim Butcher's The Dresden Files for similar reasons. Harry's power is quite well described and the degree of his limitations are addressed. Since Gandalf talks about his powers "tiring him," Harry's limitations seem more in line with those of traditional fantasy wizards. The whole bit of "guessing what you'll need that day" and "preparing in advance" is pretty idiosyncratic to Vance. By contrast, Dresden's combination of fatigue and needing time to cast is a LOT more normal.

Indeed. The only other time I see wizards in fantasy stories using the Vancian-style casting rules is when those authors have been heavily influenced by D&D itself - Feist, Kerr, Watt-Evans, Elizabeth Moon, Brust to some degree - and are consciously using those limits.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Just because someone's not flashy doesn't mean he's weak.

All that is gold does not glitter?

 

[Raven Crowking]

NO WAY. All totally glitters that is gold. And glows when I cast detect magic.

Spoiler

That was sarcasm. I agree with JohnSnow.

Cheers, -- N

Darn! You beat me to it!

 

[gizmo33]

IIRC, Gandalf was forbidden from using his powers in direct confilct with Sauron (and possibly his servants) by the Valar; his purpose in Middle-Earth was to rally and inspire the people to stand against Sauron, and (hopefully) defeat him. Should be in the Silmarillion (I'll see if I can dig up a reference).

Yea, I recall something like that, which was what I was thinking when I said that he had some sort of unspecified limitations on what he could do. I think this ultimately makes it impossible to slap an equivalent DnD level on Gandalf. Not that any such approximation is perfect for any literary character, but I think for Gandalf it's significantly less useful and accurate. If someone were to put out a d20 supplement for Middle Earth, I think the character would best be handled with another set of rules.

 

[JohnSnow]

IIRC, Gandalf was forbidden from using his powers in direct confilct with Sauron (and possibly his servants) by the Valar; his purpose in Middle-Earth was to rally and inspire the people to stand against Sauron, and (hopefully) defeat him. Should be in the Silmarillion (I'll see if I can dig up a reference).

Yea, I recall something like that, which was what I was thinking when I said that he had some sort of unspecified limitations on what he could do. I think this ultimately makes it impossible to slap an equivalent DnD level on Gandalf. Not that any such approximation is perfect for any literary character, but I think for Gandalf it's significantly less useful and accurate. If someone were to put out a d20 supplement for Middle Earth, I think the character would best be handled with another set of rules.

If I recall the quote correctly from The Lord of the Rings, the limitation is more like: "If Gandalf were to use all his power, Sauron would be free to do the same." And the resulting conflict would probably utterly destroy Middle Earth. As such, Gandalf reins himself in, except when he uses his powers in self-defense (against the Balrog, or the Nazgul on Weathertop).

I agree that Gandalf is essentially a plot device and, as such, is pretty unstat-able in D&D terms. gizmo33, you make some interesting points, which I'll try to address a bit later on, but I haven't the time at present. 'Til then.

 

[PeterWeller]

3rd, at best…

Going by the earliest tales, this is the most accurate assumption so far. Very early Arthurian tales paint him as little more than hook for his knights' adventures. In fact, there's a lot of scholarly writing on the subject of Arthur originally being a comic character, representing the impotent king (chief, really) who sent his warriors to do all his work while he took all the credit. It took a couple generations of development and adoption and a few trips back and forth across the Channel for Arthur to develop into the character we recognize today.

 

[MerricB]

Some notes:

(1) I tend to think of fantasy literature as part of an ongoing dialogue (I think the same of science, literature as a whole, philosophy, and so on).

Yep. Definitely.

(2) That said, I actually think that there is a paucity of great fantasy coming out today. There is some great fantasy coming out today, but the signal-to-noise ratio is heavily in favour of the noise. Of course, everyone's tastes are different.

Bunch of noise back then too - it's just that the bad stuff disappears whilst the good stuff stays around. I'm amazed at the amount of really good fantasy I get to read, and even the moderately good fantasy.

(3) Modern fantasy retreads the waters of the past, just as Tolkein retreads the waters of the Eddas and the Medieval romances.

To some extent, yes. It also introduces new elements: a particular new element would be the urban (cyberpunk?) fantasy. Shadowrun's one example of this, but you could also look at Michelle Sagara's "Cast" series, Steven Brust's "Vlad Taltos" books, Leiber's books and so forth. (Mieville as well, although I find him difficult to take).

Of course, Shadowrun, Mieville and Sagara use a much, much more urbanised setting than that of Leiber. Pratchett also uses fantasy as a vehicle for satire on the modern day.

A key change is presentation, though.

A lot of tales tend to be bigger in modern fantasy, and also more intricate. See both Jordan's "Wheel of Time" and Erikson's "Malazan Book of the Fallen". Erikson is a superb writer - his writings are derived from a GURPS campaign, IIRC - and he owes a lot to Glen Cook's "Black Company" books.

So, though there may be Conan comics being written today, they're going to see today's presentation more than that of Howard's. "The Lord of the Rings" movies were using today's presentation more than that of Tolkien's - and are sometimes the better for it.

Cheers!