D&D 4E 4E Devils vs. Demons article

[GVDammerung]

Listen to the "amen chorus!" If Wotc told you that they were going to perform unnatural acts on your pet (I'm cleaning that up for you cause I'm a nice guy but you can use your imagination), you "amen" comrades and "this rocks" fellow travellers would be giggling and squirming in anticipation.

This does not rock. This is not cool. This is the abandonment of much of what has made D&D "the world's most popular roleplaying game" just that, and the substitution of an untried something "other." Done in a setting, that is a vaild experiment. Done as part of the core rules it is a HUGE risk, gambling not a setting but D&D's viability if consumers reject this "other" that is going to be branded 4th Edition D&D.

This is foolish adventurism that speaks of desperation for the brand or an utter disregard for the brand. Or a hubris that imagines that something not even widely vetted by playtesting or opinion gathering outside Wotc should be substituted for D&D. This is blowing up D&D to "save" or "advance" D&D. Why? What was so "wrong" with "the world's most popular roleplaying game" that it requires this level of reimagining? Obviously, something we have not been told about or hubris.

If 4th Edition D&D goes out there and does less well that 3X, you "amen chorus" folks announcing "this rocks," "I want me some of this" etc. wll stand in sharp illumination as Wotc's chum . . . ps.

This is stupid, dangerous stuff.

 

[occam]

I'm not crazy about this, but then I like the Great Wheel.

Wow, 25 posts before the first even remotely negative opinion about this change. Quite a difference from the atmosphere over on the Paizo boards.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

At best, we'll see a Planescape or Greyhawk book in 3 years (one a year, FR first, Eberron second). That will be about 2 years away from the next edition. Why bother? Why should all the folks with long-running campaigns set in the current core have to wait?

Wait for what? For 4e stats of the Greyhawk gods? For a 4E erinyes? For a reprint of existing material on the Great Wheel? These are hardly major issues.

The only thing of substance missing will be stats on the various types of outsiders, but those can probably be easily generated, if the 4E system for monster creation is as robust as they're saying it is. Perhaps demon lords, if any are missing, will be a bit tricky, but I think Necromancer will probably jump all over that if there is a need for it.

I'm a fan of the Great Wheel, a fan of Greyhawk, and a fan of Planescape. There is enough material on the Great Wheel already. It's been done to death, and it's been good. If they were to bring it into 4E, it would be a rehash of everything that was written about it in the past.

Considering how easy it will probably be to remove the core cosmology and replace it with the Wheel, I don't see why we even need to have a book to provide it.

 

[lukelightning]

Listen to the "amen chorus!" ...This is stupid, dangerous stuff.

Dogs and cats marrying each other!

You think the only possible reason people like these ideas is that we're all toadying yes-men? I fail to see how this revision is ruining D&D, considering that every edition of D&D has gone through similar revisions and re-imaginings.

If you keep alignment as a core, defining mechanic, and tie outsiders directly to their alignment, then you have to reimagine demons and devils, otherwise alignment is meaningless and you have a system in which a demon is a demon just because you arbitrarily decided that its a demon, and the "chaotic evil" in its description could mean exactly the same as "lawful evil."

 

[Wormwood]

If 4th Edition D&D goes out there and does less well that 3X, you "amen chorus" folks announcing "this rocks," "I want me some of this" etc. wll stand in sharp illumination as Wotc's chum . . . ps.

So I am a 'chump" because I approve of the direction 4e is taking D&D.

 

[Wolfspider]

I'm really digging this new game that WotC is working on. Looks really creative with lots of cool ideas to explore and such.

Since they announced it, though, I really wish they'd start working on the new edition of Dungeons and Dragons instead of this new game....

 

[helium3]

Wow, 25 posts before the first even remotely negative opinion about this change. Quite a difference from the atmosphere over on the Paizo boards.

OOOH. I totally forgot about the Paizo boards.

*makes popcorn*

 

[Shade]

I'm really digging this new game that WotC is working on. Looks really creative with lots of cool ideas to explore and such.

Since they announced it, though, I really wish they'd start working on the new edition of Dungeons and Dragons instead of this new game....

Wolfspider FTW!

 

[DandD]

But what is D&D? D&D is it's history. The rule editions come and go, but the lore remains. If the new D&D is merely a couple of books who serendipitously have the trademark rights to put the letters D&D on them, but have nothing to do with 30 years of D&D lore, that's no longer D&D. Three letters do not make D&D.

For me and my friends, it does. D&D is only these three letters, and that means in the end the combat rules. The very reason why I am even playing D&D is because the rules are really simplified, and I can create any background world I want without the rules necessarily being restricted to this.
My friends and I never cared for Planescape, Spelljammer, Dark Sun, the Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft, Greyhawk, Eberron, Birthright or whatever myriad names there are. D&D has always only been the rules. Campaign settings are secundary in D&D. There are other Tabletop RPGs, where the rules are tied into the setting it plays, like for example Shadowrun, Vampire and the other White Wolf-stuff, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, Exalted, The Dark Eye and more. The rules system of these games only support and are meant for one specific background world that emphasizes on specific play styles.

If they somehow come up with a system in D&D that says that that's how you normally should use a monster with this rule and what it is intended to do, that's cool.
Anything else added is a nice bonus.

 

[Mirtek]

Then what was D&D back in the 70s and early 80s, when it had no history?

Lucky to be the first game.

If D&D 4e is released 2008 as basically a brand new game with merely the rights to put the D&D logo on front of it's books, then there is absolutely no reason to prefer 4e D&D over Dark Eye, Ars Magica, and whatever else is out there.

If there had been a lot of other P&P's like D&D back in the 70s, the decision to grab D&D instead of one of the many other sitting in the shelf right next to it would have been just as compleltly random than the decision to buy 4e D&D will be in 2008.

If WotC insists on making D&D into a new game, which means that I can only buy a new game anyway, why should it be their new game? If I can't any longer buy the game I know I want, then any game I buy instead has the same change to delight or disappoint me than 4e.

Three certain letters on front of the book don't make the game.