D&D 4E 4E Devils vs. Demons article
- Thread starter Reaper Steve
- Start date
Shade
Monster Junkie
Mourn said:
That is completely untrue. Paizo tried (unsuccessfully) several times to acquire the license to Greyhawk and were refused. I seem to recall seeing several similar threads regarding Planescape. WotC chose not to license out these settings. It's hard to determine their money-making potential when WotC didn't test the waters in 3e (at least not until the very last minute in the case of Greyhawk). Erik Mona said that the stealth-Greyhawk content they slipped into their magazines increased sales.
Mourn said:
Partially. I think all the people who frequent Planewalker (and voted for them for the ENNIE win) would disagree with your statement.
Merlin the Tuna
First Post
I missed the part where they identify law and chaos. Seriously, Ctrl+F "Law" = not found. Ctrl+F "Chaos" = not found.Ripzerai said:
I have to say, I really enjoy that we have a few core ideas built into the fiends at this point. Much of the previous fluff seems to follow the path of saying "Okay, Devils are Lawful and Demons are Chaotic. What does that mean?" and drawing from there. But because Law and Chaos are perhaps the most frequently disagreed-upon concepts in D&D, this got dragged in every direction and ultimately made as little sense as most of the alignments. On the other hand, rebooting with clear ideas in mind means that we can look at the books and say "Oh, Devils do this and this and this, and Demons do that and that and that. I guess I'll call the Devils Lawful and the Demons Chaotic." The thought process appears to have been reversed, and this pleases me.
That negative reactions have been so varied kind of points to this. While, looking at threads, there appears to be a glut of support for this, the other side of the fence has people saying both "This is seriously exactly the same as it always has been," as well as others yelling "THIS IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT AND MY WORLD IS RUINED." It highlights just how ill-defined the issue is. K has a nice writeup on some of the interpretations here, in his Tome of Fiends compilation. It's a similar issue to the one that plagues negative energy -- here's a tidbit on that as well.
On a more directly-relevant-to-the-article note, I enjoy the idea of Devils uprising against their God and getting exactly what they wanted but at a cost which frustrates them to no end. It forms a nice parallel with Devils offering mortals contracts which then come back to bite them in the end. While the Fiendish Codex series may or may not have included this very idea, there certainly wasn't anything in the MM or DMG that made me say "Y'know what, these planes sound fun; I should buy some supplements about them." As a result, I don't give two craps about the FCs.
But what is D&D? D&D is it's history. The rule editions come and go, but the lore remains. If the new D&D is merely a couple of books who serendipitously have the trademark rights to put the letters D&D on them, but have nothing to do with 30 years of D&D lore, that's no longer D&D. Three letters do not make D&D.catsclaw227 said:
There is a difference between saying:
a) We have improved your favorit chocolate ice cream. The dairy product is now even more creamy and we increased the percentage of chocolate chunks by X.
and saying:
b) We have improved your favorite chocolate ice cream. You will immediately notice the new red hue which is because we have removed any trace of chocolate and flavored the dairy product with strawberry juice and chunks of strawberry. But it's still a dairy product, so enjoy your chocolate ice cream!
I disagree. These powers were/are not superfluous. The out-of-combat abilities, even if complelty unpractical during an encounter, add a lot to the credibility of the creatures ecology.
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Lonely Tylenol
First Post
How do we even know that all demons are chaotic evil anymore? They've got a shtick now that isn't necessarily tied to being CE: they like to destroy. Certainly that type of behaviour tends to cluster around CE, but you could also have NE and LE creatures that enjoy nothing more than causing suffering for its own sake, and aren't the sort of manipulators that devils are.Kobold Avenger said:
On the flip side, nothing says all devils have to be LE. You could have chaotic devils who bristle under the strict rules of their society and its incarceration, but who are just as skilled at manipulation and subterfuge as any lawful devil. Heck, even ol' Asmo himself could be chaotic, but sit at the top of a lawful society. "Do what I say, or I'll kill you slowly," could be the motivation behind legions of infernal Mandarins.
If they're serious about changing up the alignment system, step one should be to uncouple it from the planes and their denizens.
Glyfair
Explorer
sckeener said:
Don't participate in many alignment threads, do you? Good & Evil discussions tend to devolve into degrees. Law & Chaos arguments tend to devolve into what exactly law & chaos means.
Some feel that having a personal code is Law. Some feel that following the rules of society is law. Then you get the "what alignment is Batman?" threads where some say he is lawful because he has a strict code and others say he breaks the rules of society so is Chaotic.
Lonely Tylenol
First Post
I came in with Basic, and I'm nostalgic about killing things and taking their stuff. Everything else is window dressing. Fortunately, I have had almost 20 good years of killing and taking stuff, with no signs of abatement.Jer said:
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