D&D 4E 4E Devils vs. Demons article

[Perun]

I don't think Lisa's wrong, but her comment does ignore the real reason the Forgotten Realms was chosen as the singular supported setting: novels. Greyhawk's never been successfully "merchandised" as the Forgotten Realms have.

I'll slightly disagree I mean, yes, the novels were probably one of the big reasons why they decided to go with the FR, but not the real reason. Look at Dragonlance, for example. It's had a very strong novel line, yet the setting was discontinued (but the novel line continued).

Think, too, of all the PC games based on the Forgotten Realms, compared to one for Greyhawk - which didn't come out until 2003.

I believe the FR "won" (although it's victory was never doubted) due to the number of small factors: it was, on its own, a very successful line; novels were certainly a big factor; the setting was constantly present since the moment it was first published (as opposed to the GH's there/not-there situation); and has always been the "vanilla" fantasy setting (as opposed to PS, DS, BR, RL, etc.; the only "challenger" being GH).

Still, the point that GH -- a setting that had few of the advantages FR had (it's as D&D vanilla as you can get, it had a few novels, was dicontinued for 5 years [1993-1998, IIRC], a lot of fans had issues with the From the Ashes boxed set events, etc.) -- sold, after its re-introduction in 1998, almost as good as the D&D's eternal flagship, [smallcaps]Forgotten Realms[/smallcaps] speaks for itself.

Regards.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

My D&D games fail 3 out of 4.

If it doesn't have armed and dangerous hobos, it's not D&D!

 

[mhacdebhandia]

The point of my comment was not to deny that Greyhawk appeals to D&D players. It was simply to point out that a setting's great appeal to D&D players is not necessarily enough to justify its continued production in the context of the greater success to be had through investment in a competing setting (the Forgotten Realms) which is just as popular with D&D players and brings in enormous revenue from novels and licensing deals.

There's a reason Eberron was launched with a novel schedule, a real-time strategy game license, and a massively-multiplayer online game license, in addition to D&D sourcebooks, after all.

I credit a great deal of what I've heard about internal animosity towards Greyhawk on the part of post-Gygax TSR management - but I also think that, by the time of the Wizards of the Coast takeover, they would have kept it alive if they thought that it had the potential to compete with the Forgotten Realms on the latter's terms, which are a lot broader than just D&D supplements.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

That said: I believe there are indications from Wizards of the Coast that they consider a "limited setting" model to be potentially profitable. Perhaps they've been paying attention to competitors like White Wolf, who have considered it worthwhile to produce limited-run games like Promethean: The Created, Changeling: The Lost, and Scion in the last two years.

In other words, a fully-supported Greyhawk product line a la the Forgotten Realms may not be a profitable venture, but a one-shot Greyhawk Campaign Setting hardback might easily sell well enough to justify its production.

 

[Perun]

I'm back on topic with this one (well, sort of)

I'm still ambivalent about the announced changes to the D&D multiverse (since I am a huge fan of PS and the Great Ring), but I'm also slightly cautiously optimistic about the whole thing.

I like what they're doing with devils and demons. Devils are fallen angels, spiritual creatures (I'm making assumptions based on some of the "old" D&D lore here, presuming those things won't change) from a spiritual realm (the Astral Plane, or the Astral Sea as it's now apparently called). As such they seek corruption, spiritual as well as physical.

Demons, OTOH, are corrupted elementals. They and their realm (Abyss) was created by the ultimate corruption of the building blocks of the multiverse (another assumption based on the current (old?) Inner Planes) by Tharizdun (Elder Elemental God), and thus demons seek destruction of the entire creation.

I really hope the designers include (most) of the other, unmentioned planar creatures. They've mentioned angels (and I, again, assume they're talking about 3(.5) angels/aasimon (devas, planetars, solars).

We have a hint from Mousferatu's excellent guesswork that there'll probably be "eladrin" (maybe advanced forms of the expected PC race), and I hope they toss in guardinals and archons (although it might be they're redesigning archons -- a number of archons have animal characteristics, which might lead to confusion with guardinals -- as the new angels, along with the aasimon). And it's been hinted that gelugons are actually yugoloths (IIRC), so they might be in, too (please, let them be in! )

And, apparently, we're getting an article on the planes and new cosmology later today, on the DDI, so there's hope they'll mention palanr inhabitants. Bart Carroll's blog mentions feywild (presumably re-designed Arborea), shadowfell (Plane of Shadow), and elemental chaos (Limbo? or combination of Limbo and the elemental planes?).

Regards.

 

[Baby Samurai]

It's really no big deal; you've always been able to go with any cosmology you like.

Look at FR, some people still consider it part of the Great Wheel/Planescape (like me) and others implement the new Tree cosmology.

Krynn, I still consider it part of Planescape and Takhisis is merely an aspect of Tiamat, but some people have embraced the new Cosmology that came along in the Dragonlance d20 hardcover.

Now Dark Sun was interesting, because in the Dragon Kings hardcover they suggested that it was in its own Alternate Material plane with it’s own Elemental planes etc, but the Spacefarers Handbook and Ravenloft suggested that Dark Sun (athas) was part of the Planescape/Spelljammer cosmology in a closed crystal sphere. And in the 3.5 Dark Sun articles in Dragon they separated in into its own cosmology like FR, Krynn and Eberron.

Speaking of Eberron, I consider it part of the Great Wheel/Planescape in my current "Planescape" campaign, but that doesn't mean I couldn't run an Eberron campaign and use its particular cosmology.

So the only current official 3.5 campaign setting that uses the Great Wheel is Greyhawk.

This new 4th Ed cosmology is for the "Points of Light" implied setting – big deal.

 

[Shemeska]

I must have missed the book in which Sigil appears in 3rd edition.

What Shade said, plus the 3.5 DMG...

But if that question of yours was just meant to be ironic or something, I couldn't make any sense of it.

 

[Shemeska]

But this has always been a false hope.

Dragonlance didn't use the Great Wheel until Planescape said it did.

Actually DL using the Great Wheel predates Planescape considerably. At the very least it was assumed part of the Great Wheel cosmology in the 1e Manual of the Planes, and before that point DL itself never touched upon any actual cosmology. Having something wholly distinct of its own is honestly a 3e invention.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Actually DL using the Great Wheel predates Planescape considerably. At the very least it was assumed part of the Great Wheel cosmology in the 1e Manual of the Planes, and before that point DL itself never touched upon any actual cosmology. Having something wholly distinct of its own is honestly a 3e invention.

I am afraid that is not correct.

It is clear from the novels and from the hardback Dragonlance Adventures that Dragonlance's cosmology is unlike the Great Wheel. It is not properly fleshed-out, no, but it's also incompatible.

 

[Baby Samurai]

It is clear from the novels and from the hardback Dragonlance Adventures that Dragonlance's cosmology is unlike the Great Wheel. It is not properly fleshed-out, no, but it's also incompatible.

True, the original Planescape boxed set is what solidified Kryyn as part of the Great Wheel, and used the Clueless thing to explain why the people of Krynn refer to the 1st plane of hell (Avernus) as the Abyss.