D&D 4E 4E Devils vs. Demons article

Belorin said:
So, let's see if we can extrapolate what's coming.
It has already been said that the way alignments are used is changing, the Nine Hells are an astral dominion among other deific abodes in the Astral Sea meaning that they may no longer be connected as they were on the Great Wheel.
The Abyss, which gapes like a festering wound in the landscape of the Elemental Tempest, sounds like the Elemental Planes won't have defined borders, but a continuous landscape comprised of all 4 elements. (possibly containing the Para & Quasi-elemental palnes also)
Of course this is all supposition on my part. :\

Paradise Lost, Book 2: Satan ponders his voyage to the "material plane":

John Milton said:
Into this wilde Abyss,
The Womb of nature and perhaps her Grave,
Of neither Sea, nor Shore, nor Air, nor Fire,
But all these in thir pregnant causes mixt
Confus'dly, and which thus must ever fight,
Unless th' Almighty Maker them ordain
His dark materials to create more Worlds,
Into this wilde Abyss the warie fiend
Stood on the brink of Hell and look'd a while,
Pondering his Voyage; for no narrow frith
He had to cross.

Sounds like the Elemental tempest, doesn't it?

Paradise Lost, Book 2: Satan has to enlist help to cross the Abyss (Elemental Tempest):

John Milton said:
Undaunted to meet there what ever power
Or Spirit of the nethermost Abyss
Might in that noise reside, of whom to ask
Which way the neerest coast of darkness lyes
Bordering on light; when strait behold the Throne
Of CHAOS, and his dark Pavilion spread
Wide on the wasteful Deep; with him Enthron'd
Sat Sable-vested Night, eldest of things,
The consort of his Reign; and by them stood
ORCUS and ADES, and the dreaded name
Of DEMOGORGON; Rumor next and Chance,
And Tumult and Confusion all imbroild,
And Discord with a thousand various mouths.
T' whom SATAN turning boldly, thus. Ye Powers
And Spirits of this nethermost Abyss,
CHAOS and ANCIENT NIGHT, I come no Spie,
With purpose to explore or to disturb
The secrets of your Realm...

Nethermost Abyss sounds like this festering hole in the elemental tempest, doesn't it?

Ok, and now tell me again that 4th edition planes Hell and Abyss is original and not a copy-paste rip off from Paradise Lost.
 

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Another thought that struck me. With a complete new setting for the multiverse there is endless potential for new Books.
New Manual of the planes.
The Manual of Elemental Tempest
Slavering Hordes of the Abyss
The Temptation of Hell
The Hitchhikers Guide to the Atsral Plane and so on.

If they would have kept the old Great Wheel or broader: the old definition of planes. You might have used the old 1st or 3rd edition fluff Books and not bought the new 4th edition ones.

So from a marketing point of view this is the best thing they could do!
 


Baby Samurai said:
True, the original Planescape boxed set is what solidified Kryyn as part of the Great Wheel, and used the Clueless thing to explain why the people of Krynn refer to the 1st plane of hell (Avernus) as the Abyss.
A regrettable and unnecessary decision from the perspective of maintaining fidelity to the Dragonlance setting as conceived, if you ask me (and why wouldn't you?).
 

mhacdebhandia said:
A regrettable and unnecessary decision from the perspective of maintaining fidelity to the Dragonlance setting as conceived, if you ask me (and why wouldn't you?).

It was the norm at the time to do this. Spelljammer had a port in Palanthas, for instance, and the protagonist of the Cloakmaster Cycle of SJ books was a Krynnish native. All of that's been dropped or ignored from DL continuity now. Likewise, Ravenloft used Soth and brought Krynn and the other TSR game worlds together to support its game line, something else that's disputed now.

Dragonlance did have its own cosmology to begin with. It's the one we went back to when we added it in 3rd edition. Manual of the Planes included Dragonlance for the same reason Planescape did - the authors wanted to create a specific implied multiverse. This approach is what was abandoned in 3e.

Cheers,
Cam
 

Tharen the Damned said:
Nethermost Abyss sounds like this festering hole in the elemental tempest, doesn't it?

Ok, and now tell me again that 4th edition planes Hell and Abyss is original and not a copy-paste rip off from Paradise Lost.
I don't think that many people are stating that the 4e cosmology IS original. But maybe they are going back to a literary masterpiece and using it as inspiration to reenvision it as something that better places the Demons and Devils into something other than an abstract alignment system that, quite franky has been tossed as anything more than fluff in any game I have played in as late.

Does the alignment wheel/mechanic have it's roots in D&D or did it originate in some other game system or literary source?

It is an oft-houseruled, oft-argued mechanic - just look at all the alignment based threads - and yet there are a LOT of game pieces that it's fingers are buried in. Demons/Devils, the blood war, great wheel, detect spells, protection spells, magical enhancements, etc.

I like Malhavoc's work on these things in Arcana Evolved, yet I also like the idea of a [Good]/[Evil] descriptor, as well as maybe a [Lawful]/[Chaotic] descriptor for somethings that have a minor impact on the game. For example, IMC, we use Detect Evil to only detect items, spells or creatures that have that descriptor. It's a META-TAG instead of a set of morals or belief systems that must be attributed to a living creature. It solves the argument about whether the goblin baby evil just because it was born.

There is dark/vile/truly [Evil] and then there's dirty rotten bastard (not evil, just a bad dude).
 

Glyfair said:
Don't participate in many alignment threads, do you? Good & Evil discussions tend to devolve into degrees. Law & Chaos arguments tend to devolve into what exactly law & chaos means.

Some feel that having a personal code is Law. Some feel that following the rules of society is law. Then you get the "what alignment is Batman?" threads where some say he is lawful because he has a strict code and others say he breaks the rules of society so is Chaotic.

Unfortunately I do participate in alignment threads. I must have a learning problem.

I feel the same way about good and evil as I do about law or chaos. I see shades gray in Good&Evil as I do in Law&Chaos. It all depends on if you view it as personal or community. You can act in a personally Good way that is Evil for society.

3rd edition's focus on actions because it didn't fix anything about alignment and created others.
 

catsclaw227 said:
I don't think that many people are stating that the 4e cosmology IS original. But maybe they are going back to a literary masterpiece and using it as inspiration to reenvision it as something that better places the Demons and Devils into something other than an abstract alignment system that, quite franky has been tossed as anything more than fluff in any game I have played in as late.

Does the alignment wheel/mechanic have it's roots in D&D or did it originate in some other game system or literary source?

It is an oft-houseruled, oft-argued mechanic - just look at all the alignment based threads - and yet there are a LOT of game pieces that it's fingers are buried in. Demons/Devils, the blood war, great wheel, detect spells, protection spells, magical enhancements, etc.

I like Malhavoc's work on these things in Arcana Evolved, yet I also like the idea of a [Good]/[Evil] descriptor, as well as maybe a [Lawful]/[Chaotic] descriptor for somethings that have a minor impact on the game. For example, IMC, we use Detect Evil to only detect items, spells or creatures that have that descriptor. It's a META-TAG instead of a set of morals or belief systems that must be attributed to a living creature. It solves the argument about whether the goblin baby evil just because it was born.

There is dark/vile/truly [Evil] and then there's dirty rotten bastard (not evil, just a bad dude).

No Alignments or no rule mechanics like detect evil?
Now that would be a good move!
I absolutely hate that every evil NPC has to have ring on nondection that he can be used as a Plot device before screened by the Paladin or whomever.
 

Cam Banks said:
It was the norm at the time to do this. Spelljammer had a port in Palanthas, for instance, and the protagonist of the Cloakmaster Cycle of SJ books was a Krynnish native.
I completely understand why they did this sort of thing, though, considering that I became interested in Spelljammer because I read Dragonlance books and picked up those novels due to their Krynnish protagonist. ;)
 


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