D&D 4E 4E Devils vs. Demons article

[Wormwood]

The assumption here is that the standard cosmology was some sort of draw to the brand in the first place and not something that pushed people away or was ignored entirely.

Bingo.

In just about every homebrew I can remember, the cosmology was either ignored or rewritten from the ground up.

Hell, I remember being 12-years old and looking at the original "Map of the Outer Planes" and being vaguely confused that TSR had just crammed Olympus, Asgard and the Happy Hunting Grounds together with Dante's Inferno and Nirvana.

I assumed it was just to make hunting down all the gods from Deities & Demigods easier.

 

[Anthraxus]

Wasn't digging the changes the first time they announced the devil/demon thing.

Now that they've expanded on it some more... still not liking it. :\

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I don't get this oft-repeated analogy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Ultimate Universe titles get released in parallel to the standard universe?

4e seems to be the Ultimate Universe completely at the expense of the existing universe.

D&D can have more than one setting.

If WotC doesn't release a Planescape setting book -- remember, they've said they currently plan to release a setting a year under the new edition -- that includes the old cosmology, someone else will. Paizo or Necromancer or Green Ronin won't be able to use Sigil, or the silly 2E plane names, but pretty much everything else is public domain, or close enough that they can approximate it without too much trouble.

You have 30 years of material relating to the old cosmology. At some point, someone will produce 4E support for it. You just have to hang tight until then.

 

[Simplicity]

I like this Design article. There are differences between demons and devils again. The lines had been blurring for a while. This reorganizes and delineates what is DEVIL and what is DEMON. There are strong ties to the Temple of Elemental Evil in the 4E fluff. We have Tharizdun, the abyss in the Elemental Tempest, and there is a reference to Imix in a DDM article. The cosmology article that will out on Wednesday will clear up some more things.

I think alignment is gone as we knew it. Was it Andy Collin's blog that said:

"Do you think you know what the word Chaotic means? Really? Are you sure? Care to place a wager?"

Demons serve to bring about entropy through evil. Either with their bare claws or through sowing the seeds of destruction in mortal realms, i.e. plague, famine and war. The order of the world is reduced to the chaos-that-came-before.
Devils want to subvert the order of the world for their own purpose. They twist whatever they interact with, but the form stays the same.

Chaotic is much more active in this fluff. It is a cancer in creation. Tharizdun is chained but the seed of evil, that rent a hole in the Elemental Tempest itself, still creates twisted abominations. Is Chaotic the new evil? Is chaotic the Lovecraftian form of anti-reality or proto-reality? If the abyss is a hole in the Elemental Tempest, where does that corrupting hole go?

I think alignment remains.

Chaos is that which existed at the beginning. Before law and before the gods. Destructive, uncontrolled elemental forces. And thus, taking the elemental planes and shoving them down into the more chaotic-aligned areas is really a brilliant idea. It's well-aligned with the original Greek idea of Chaos.

And finding a way for "Elemental Evil" to make *sense* in the D&D cosmology?!?! That's great. Of course, it means that now if they do a Return to the Returned Temple of Elemental Evil, the PCs will just say, "Oh, you mean the Demon Temple?"

 

[Jer]

The assumption here is that the standard cosmology was some sort of draw to the brand in the first place and not something that pushed people away or was ignored entirely.

This assumption tends to get made a lot by people who came into D&D via AD&D (1e or 2e).

I notice that it gets made a lot less often by people who started gaming with other versions of D&D (OD&D or Basic/Expert D&D) or with other games entirely.

I'm not sure what that means exactly, but I suspect that nostalgia is a big draw for a lot of folks who play D&D and different people have nostalgia for different things.

 

[Urbanmech]

I really like the places they are going with the new planes. By lessening the focus on alignment they have a lot more creative freedom than just sticking to the original 9 outer planes. Anything that opens up new design space and gets those creative juices flowing is good by me.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

This assumption tends to get made a lot by people who came into D&D via AD&D (1e or 2e).

I notice that it gets made a lot less often by people who started gaming with other versions of D&D (OD&D or Basic/Expert D&D) or with other games entirely.

I'm not sure what that means exactly, but I suspect that nostalgia is a big draw for a lot of folks who play D&D and different people have nostalgia for different things.

I am 100 percent driven by nostalgia for the thief-acrobrat. Oh, and polearms. Well, polearm-using thief-acrobats. Well, drow polearm-using thief-acrobats. I sure hope 4E caters to me!

 

[Glyfair]

By lessening the focus on alignment they have a lot more creative freedom than just sticking to the original 9 outer planes.

9 Outer Planes? Which are those? The earliest mention of the outer planes I remember were in Dragon and all but one of the planes were there. Was it OD&D (I don't have access to them right now)?

 

[Jer]

I am 100 percent driven by nostalgia for the thief-acrobrat. Oh, and polearms. Well, polearm-using thief-acrobats. Well, drow polearm-using thief-acrobats. I sure hope 4E caters to me!

But if they don't have the guisarme-glaive and the ear-spoon in this edition it's all over. 4e will be dead to me.

 

[Fobok]

On the one hand, as a Planescape fan, I'm somewhat opposed to these changes. On the other hand, I've suddenly had so many story ideas from this new cosmology that I have to say I like it. I just hope they don't try to force FR and other settings to fit this new cosmology.