4E DM's Surprised By Players?

[helium3]

By this I mean, have any of your players suddenly shocked you with their never before seen tactical brilliance? Or stupidity? Anyone else surprised by sudden changes in the way your group "works" in a social sense?

I have this one player who is generally what the DMG calls a "watcher." In our 3E games, her characters didn't "shine" like some of the others because she wasn't interested in doing the whole "build" thing. In fact, some of the other players would get irritated at times because her non-build focused characters weren't as useful in tough encounters. They weren't "carrying their share of the weight."

But now, in 4E it suddenly becomes clear that she's the reigning tactical genius at the table. She's the one that's always suggesting the kooky but shockingly effective strategies. The build-monkeys, still cocky after having been the "alphas" for so long, haven't quite come to terms with their rapidly diminishing social status. In fact, I don't think they've quite realized that their time has come to an end.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out over the next couple of games. Frankly, I'm surprised at how bad the BM's are at tactics. I had assumed that they would be as good at that sort of thing as they were at twinking their characters. Apparently, being able to memorize rules doesn't mean you're also good at applying them in dynamic situations.

 

[Particle_Man]

I think that instead of Character Optimization threads, it is likely that we shall (or maybe should) see Tactics Optimization threads. It is the new way of "winning".

 

[helium3]

I think that instead of Character Optimization threads, it is likely that we shall (or maybe should) see Tactics Optimization threads. It is the new way of "winning".

Yep. I'm actually kind of shocked at how much I like the change.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Apparently, being able to memorize rules doesn't mean you're also good at applying them in dynamic situations.

Yeah, it's a completely different skill set. You could win 3e through knowledge, book ownership and visiting the CharOp forum. You win 4e on the battlegrid.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Funny. I've yet to see if this is also true for my group.

But most of my group was always good at tactics - and also good power-gamers. We'll see how well I am actually at the tactical job once I get to play my Warlord.

I know one player that might never be really good at tactic, and his power-gaming character optimizations seems way to off rely on stopping to read his powers, spells or class abilities before the drawbacks appear. I don't know if it's intentional or if he just has so much trouble with using English rulebooks (even after 8 years). He has a certain habit of... cheating... but he also seems to be less capable in using a published adventure as effective as others DMs, so both might factor in...

In the end, the rest of the group will always be there to correct mistakes, intentional or unintentional ones.

 

[Dark Eternal]

...

 

[Orryn Emrys]

I actually noted a couple of weeks ago, after reading through the Warlord class description, that the idea might be well suited to one of my wife's long-standing character interests, a sort of rebuild of her 1st-Edition cavalier character from back in the 80s... and she knows nothing about tactics. After she read the class, she wanted to try it too. The characters' powers are so easy to use, it would be difficult to not perform brilliantly.

This is, incidentally, although a fascinating development, not necessarily something which endears me to the new ruleset.

 

[Wik]

Yeah, I like that change on 4e. There is a definite amount of tactical thinking involved in the game. Our own "watcher" has come out of her shell playing a rogue, now that she's the primary damage-dealer. Though, our build monkey is loving 4e, too - his kobold fighter owns the battlefield, due to his surprising amount of maneouverability.

In the other group I run, tactics come out, too. The warlord's "hit 'em again!" power makes things fun, and it's nice to see the fighter try to dominate the battlefield. Not to mention the rogue trying to get into a good position.

 

[hamishspence]

if true, good, Very good

Specifically, that battle is more about thinking than twinking.

I wonder how popular this more tactical feel will be? I personally like it.

 

[Scribble]

Yeah I've seen this as well... I really like it. Less time worrying about how to play the game, and more time focusing on how to play IN the game.

 

[Mallus]

I think that instead of Character Optimization threads, it is likely that we shall (or maybe should) see Tactics Optimization threads. It is the new way of "winning".

You mean winning because of how you actually play the game? That's just... shocking.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Specifically, that battle is more about thinking than twinking.

I wonder how popular this more tactical feel will be? I personally like it.

I think anyone less interested in combat or using a battlemat and miniature representations (be it actually minis or token) will not be able to appreciate it.

Anyone that likes this stuff wlll probable like the change, too. After all, all the expensive toys actually are useful this way!


People that loved digesting the rule books and reading forums to optimize their characters might find themselves with a lot of free time, which can be good or bad. Or they'll invest in their private battle mats and try to come up with possible encounters to optimize stragegy? (Sounds unlikely...)

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I actually first saw this in 3.5E, not in 4E, oddly enough.

It was when we started more carefully tracking the position of the characters, to deal with AoOs and so on. Then we saw something very similar - the "watcher-ish" player suddenly became very tactically adept and made very good use of their character, avoided and created opportunities for AoOs and did a good job generally, where the expert builder's character sort of blundered into the enemy and flailed at them.

However, as Mustrum says, I think this will actually make some players sad. One of my players is a long-time "power-gamer". He loves power-gaming dearly. He plays well, he's polite, he's funny, he RPs more than some of the others and advances the plot, but it's clear he gets big thrills from super-optimized characters and getting "phat l3wt". 3.5E was thus more or less perfect for him (even though his characters actually rarely stole the spotlight). He actually didn't get to play in the adventures I ran recently, but I suspect he'll be slightly LESS engaged than before, so this does cut both ways.

In 4E, though, I was PAINFULLY reminded of the tactical expertise of my brother. He DM'd 3.XE, so I'd forgotten about it. In 2E had frequently came up with terrifying plans or brilliant uses for spells. In 4E he played very smart and very tactical and spotted ALL SORTS of flaws in my plans, in and out of combat.

Overall? Seems like an improvement, but I hope there's enough chargen crunch to engage my power-gamer.

 

[Byrons_Ghost]

Could someone post some specific examples? I've been hearing a lot about how 4e is more about tactics and teamwork (and this seems to be the case). I've played very little so far, however, so I haven't quite got my head around the change yet.

 

[Nightchilde-2]

I was surprised by how much a couple of my players actually latched on to the skill challenge rules as a guideline for RPing. In our first session, it turned our weakest RPer into our strongest one. It's kinda hard to explain...I think the skill challenges gave her some guidance as far as how her character would act in some way.

 

[Scribble]

Could someone post some specific examples? I've been hearing a lot about how 4e is more about tactics and teamwork (and this seems to be the case). I've played very little so far, however, so I haven't quite got my head around the change yet.

Well for example:

Ordinarily shift costs a move action. So you can shift and attack or move and attack, but you can't do all three. (action points aside.)

Kobolds have an ability that let's them shift as a minor action. So they can move attack and shift all in the same turn. This makes them a bit hard to pin down at times.

If you can't pin someone down, then it makes the "striker's" job harder to do...

Enter the fighter. He has a marking power, that while it doesn't stop people from moving, it causes the movement to trigger an OA, making movement a less then optimal choice.

So, fighter pins the little kobold down, rogue gets into flanking position for more damage.

or, maybe the wizard has a power that can slide an opponent a few squares... Slide that opponent in between two "strikers..." Ouch.

 

[billd91]

I actually first saw this in 3.5E, not in 4E, oddly enough.

I saw it in 3.0, to a certain degree as well, but it had less to do with tactics and more to do with intimidating rules mastery. The wife of one long-time player decided that with the appearance of 3.0, the time was ripe for her to pick up the dice and dive in. Until that point, she felt kind of intimidated/hedged out by us long-timers who knew the rules backward and forward. With 3.0, and all of us having to learn the new edition, the playing field was leveled and it brought her active participation out.

Now she runs 2 campaigns.

So while the relative straight-forwardness of beginning powers may be a factor, it also might be that the buildmonkeys are a bit wrong-footed having to master the build strategies of the new edition.

In any event, hopefully the increase in participation is permanent. The wallflowers sometimes just need the opportunity to truly feel an equal at the table.

 

[Agamon]

Yep, personally I'd choose tactics over twinking any day. I play a lot of board games, and I prefer games where I have a lot of different viable options to win over ones where I need to figure out the best trick to win.

 

[Wik]

I think Bill has hit the right of it. That would be a good explanation for why MY watcher is coming out of the woodwork.

 

[WhatGravitas]

I think Bill has hit the right of it. That would be a good explanation for why MY watcher is coming out of the woodwork.

Hehe, in our group, our watcher (i.e. my SO) is coming out as well and has incredible fun with her wizard, blasting minions with scorching bursts and thunderwaves.

4E: THE game for watchers and new DMs. Seemingly, very accessible - still positively surprised about that.

Cheers, LT.