4e "getting back to D&D's roots" how?

[Piratecat]

I'm surprised to find that aspects feel very old-school to me as well. Not the powers; in our group, the jury is still out as to how much they feel like D&D. But I love no longer having a jillion closely interconnected sub-systems in monster design. I can't remember the last time the mechanical aspects of DMing was this easy, and that leaves me more time for story prep and pretentious coffee drinking.

 

[TerraDave]

pretentious coffee drinking.

Is a beret involved...tell us more!

 

[Nebulous]

I can't remember the last time the mechanical aspects of DMing was this easy, and that leaves me more time for story prep and pretentious coffee drinking.

oh yeah, that's the Saturday morning plan for me on my couch with a pen and notebook.

 

[The_Gneech]

Classes are back to straightjackets for a starter. ;P

-The Gneech, wondering how long 'til 4E has "kits"

 

[Fifth Element]

So true. It does not feel like D&D. It has lost that in the kewl superpowers for everyone movement. 4E is so far from the feel and style of OD&D that I just cant even be gain to understand how people still use that line....sigh.

Do people still use that "kewl superpowers" line? ... sigh.

 

[Fifth Element]

-The Gneech, wondering how long 'til 4E has "kits"

It already does, they're just delayed until 11th level.

 

[tankschmidt]

I don't really see it either. If 4e is similar to any other version of D&D, it'd have to be 3e. Both have an in-depth skill system in which success depends more on rolling a check rather than describing your character's action. Both have a unified mechanic and a highly codified set of rules. The art in both editions is similar. Both have a lot of options for mechanical character customization -- all the way from point-buying of ability scores to selecting feats. Both have lengthy, detailed stat blocks for monsters. In these two editions, all classes advance at the same rate, and there has been some effort to balance the classes against each other in power level (obviously, 3e was less than successful). Neither edition has any race/class restrictions or demihuman level limits. Neither rewards experience points for acquiring treasure. Both seem to indicate that magical items can be purchased, while OD&D did not even include monetary values for magical items. In both games, encounters are intended to be scaled to the level of the PCs.

Actually, 4e goes even further from the game's roots than 3e did. Vancian magic has been completely reworked, monsters are now core races (and vice-versa, RAWR), and there's no 10' pole in the equipment table. Moreover, 4e includes no wandering monster tables or random magical item tables.

The fact is that D&D's roots are set in a hobbyist, do-it-yourself culture, and every publication since about 1985 has been more slick, streamlined, professional, and in a sense more tightly regulated. The original game was meant to be refereed on the fly, with fast-and-loose rulings. I'll concede that in some ways, 4e does lend itself to more intuitive off-the-cuff rulings, but that alone does not make for a significant step back to the roots of the hobby.

 

[TerraDave]

Old School:

Dwarf fighter: More focus on (1) race and (1) class for PCs
I can’t find a rule for this: More scope for, and encouragement of, DM adjudication
Bandit monster: NPCs and adversaries as simpler “monsters”, pcs as “charecters”
I listen at door, the village smith makes my dagger: Streamlined skills (and D&D has, since the mid 70’s, always had some kind of skills)
1 column of adventuring gear: old school short equipment section
No one but you can help the villagers: points of light, old style play for kids of today
This cheetoh is the orc: Playing with minis
This is still D&D: fighters, rangers, paladins, clerics, wizards, elves, dwarves, halflings fighting kobolds, goblins, orcs, dragons…

New School:

I move him 1 square! (little) Powers for all!
Its 4th level, we are all +2: completing the streamlining that started 20 years ago
We come together to call the messenger beaver: Rituals (that cover a lot of ground of old spells)
Tails, scales, and hopping elves: the two new races and the eladrin 2E was missing
Warbodies: two new classes
Oh, he’s a defender and she’s a striker: clarifying what some classes are actually about
Its important that everyone has fun: encouragement of DM sensitivity
Are we to the next encounter yet: things keying off encounters, milestones….
This cheetoh is the orc berserker: Playing with minis like we mean it
D&D MIA: frost giants, gold dragons, gnome illusionist, and mondrons, somebody loves you…

 

[Psion]

Do you think it's getting back to the roots of the game?

No, I really don't. Keeping in mind here that the "roots" I identify with are more 1e than OD&D.

The metasetting changes are the first thing that seems to me to be a departure from the traditions of D&D. Unless by "roots" you mean "before 1e and before Eldritch Wizardry". In which case fair enough but it still didn't look like what 4e has.

Perhaps more importantly, 4e followed the trajectory 3e had, and that trajectory wasn't a classical nostalgic one. A trend 3e had was away from the earlier 1e focus of being a "dungeon exploration game" and towards a "string of combat encounters" game. 4e completes this transition.

 

[Fifth Element]

Speaking of elves, when are we going to get our elves who can become invisible at will back?

That's how they were in Chainmail, and that's about as close to D&D's roots as you can get.