D&D 4E 4e, Gleemax, and DDI info from GAMA Trade Show

[Propagandroid]

Well, I've updated my blog with some info from Gleemax and 4e seminars at GAMA Trade Show today. My reactor core is almost empty, so I wasn't able to dump everything tonight, but rest assured the rest of my notes will be faithfully transcribed sometime int he next 24 hours.

http://www.thegamerdome.com/ (Read the sticky and sign up for the newsletter, or scroll past it to the second post for the 4e/Gleemax news).

Among the scoops posted today:

DDI Pricing
Some surprising (at least to me) Gleemax news
A teaser scoop about Forgotten Realms and their campaign settings going forward (Dark Sun anyone? Spelljammer? Go read! )

Among the scoops coming later today/tomorrow:

A full rundown on the product schedule, as well as design insights from Bill Slaviscek and Scott Rouse, and an in-depth look at the Dungeon Builder, their marketing campaign, and some Q&A with the audiences.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I have to say the biggest news for me there is this:

Forgotten Realms 4e is three books, period, done, end of line: Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, Player’s Guide to FR, and DM’s Guide to FR. All settings will be done like that, one per year, until they run out of settings. They mentioned Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, and Spelljammer as settings on their list! Eberron, of course, is the ‘09 setting release (same three books), but it will also get DDI updates starting in June.

It will be neat to see these settings come back, especially Spelljammer (after all the debate/idea building from the Astraljammer thread).

 

[Baron Opal]

Interesting. Thanks for the download and I look forward to further updates.

 

[Green Knight]

Holy crap! I literally clapped my hands and squealed like a girl when I saw Ravenloft on that list. Boy, I can't wait.

On the one hand, though, it really sucks seeing that each campaign setting will only be getting three books, period. On the other hands, it's fantastic seeing settings that haven't been around since 2nd edition(!) getting support, again. Sucks for Forgotten Realms and Eberron fans, great for Spelljammer, Greyhawk and Dark Sun fans.

Here's an idea, though. Any chance WotC can license these settings out to third party publishers? Think about it. WotC puts out the 4E Ravenloft Player's Guide, 4E Ravenloft Campaign Guide, and 4E Ravenloft Dungeon Master's Guide. They could leave it at that, but why, when they can license the setting out? They could, for instance, have Arthaus have it back. Then Arthaus can start producing supplements for it, again. Gazetteers, Van Richten's Guides, etc. All of which are dependent on the three core 4E Ravenloft books to play. So the setting gets support, while WotC gets increased profits for those campaign books. It's a win-win all around. The fans of the settings get the additional support they want for their favorite settings. Third party publishers get to make money on properties that WotC isn't interested in developing, and WotC makes additional money off of those efforts, as that would lead to continued interest in the 4E Player Guide's, Campaign Guides, and DM Guide's for those settings.

So any chance anyone from WotC can pop in and let us know if that's the plan? I hope so. Cause I'd love to see, say, Sovereign Press put out additional supplements for Dragonlance, while Arthaus puts out additional supplements for Ravenloft, and someone else puts out additional supplements for Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Birthright, Greyhawk, and so on.

 

[Zulithe]

3 books per setting eh? No books beyond that to expand on anything? There are more than a dozen Eberron books, and probably as many or more FR books for 3/3.5e. Some better than others, to be sure. But this is a substantial change.

I have mixed feelings about this, if true. How to they plan to expand on the settings, for those that crave more? D&DI content, I assume? While I don't want to see WotC churn out endless setting supplemental manuals with little of use to most campaigns inside, I think there is definitely room for more than 3 books per setting. It just seems to me that there is so much that won't get covered, compared to what we saw covered in the 3e manuals. Both crunch *and* fluff.

If the 3 book rule is true, then we are definitely seeing a substantial paradigm shift in terms of how WotC views and supports their settings.

 

[Mouseferatu]

3 books per setting eh? No books beyond that to expand on anything? There are more than a dozen Eberron books, and probably as many or more FR books for 3/3.5e. Some better than others, to be sure. But this is a substantial change.

I have mixed feelings about this, if true. How to they plan to expand on the settings, for those that crave more? D&DI content, I assume? While I don't want to see WotC churn out endless setting supplemental manuals with little of use to most campaigns inside, I think there is definitely room for more than 3 books per setting. It just seems to me that there is so much that won't get covered, compared to what we saw covered in the 3e manuals. Both crunch *and* fluff.

If the 3 book rule is true, then we are definitely seeing a substantial paradigm shift in terms of how WotC views and supports their settings.

Speaking only for myself, I think it's a great idea.

I love the "limited release" model for campaign settings. (It's worked very well for White Wolf, for instance.) It's enough to give the basics of the setting, without hyper-detailing every little corner of the world--that, at least to me, is the perfect mix.

That said, there's no doubt whatsoever in my mind that the settings will see expansion, in DDI articles. And I'm also willing to bet that if the three books exceed sales expectations, WotC would probably at least consider expanding the lines down the road. But again, those are just guesses.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I just want to pipe in, limited runs like the 3 books can work in your favour.

White Wolf has been doing 5 books runs for their "Super per Year" first with Promethean: The Created, then Changeling: The Lost and finally next year Hunter: The Vigil.

Basically everyone who has bought them, has agreed it is some of the best work WW has done. By allowing only a limited space, that forced the designers and writers to really pack each book with as much info and good fluff as possible, there is literally no wasted space. By also having only limited books it means each book was much more focused and precise.

This can work even more so for campaign-settings. Since, unlike with WW where they had to set down new rules and everything for the new Supers. With the campaign-settings this is already done with PHB/DMG. As such they can really concentrate on each book containing as much good info and fluff as it can, without simply wasting space since they can just publish a new book.

It is good for both developers/writers and us the buying public.

Edit: Lol, posted using the same reference at the same time as Mouseferatu. Obviously our point stands up to multiple-views

 

[Zulithe]

Here's an idea, though. Any chance WotC can license these settings out to third party publishers?

I share your enthusiasm re: more settings being published! At the end of the day, I think i'd much rather see 8 or 10 settings published in 3-book sets than only 2 or 3 settings getting 20+ books. This allows both for enhanced variety and more room for the DM to play around with the setting and fill in the gaps him/her self.

Also the idea of licensing out settings is fantastic. The best of both worlds! We get MORE settings, plus, smaller publishers would have the name recongition on their products to boost sales while giving the campaigns that thirst for extended material what they want.

Everyone would win.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Let me add that there are almost certainly solid financial and business reasons for this model.

(Disclaimer: I have no access to, or inside knowledge of, WotC's sales--and I wouldn't be sharing them even if I did. I do, however, have what I think is at least a somewhat solid grasp of the industry from the various companies I've worked with.)

A campaign setting book, by definition, has a smaller target market than the core rules. Eberron doesn't appeal to everyone; FR doesn't appeal to everyone; etc. So to start with, a campaign setting book is targeting only a piece of the "gamer pie."

(Yummy.)

Every subsequent book is targeting a smaller and smaller bit of what is already a limited piece. DM's Guide to Faerun? Not going to sell to everyone who likes FR; only to those who either plan to DM, or who are such huge fans of the setting that they want every book.

And the further you go, the more esoteric you get, the smaller and smaller your potential market becomes. A book on Waterdeep? Only going to appeal to a very select portion of the FR market.

(I don't mean to pick on FR. The same is true of Eberron, Greyhawk, or any other setting. It's just a solid example.)

Eventually, you've reached a point of diminishing returns. It's possible to make books so limited in scope that you can't recoup the cost. But the thing is, the line ceases to be viable well before you reach that extreme. Frankly, the line ceases to be viable as soon as sales on the latest FR (or whatever setting) book decline below sales on the average core/non-setting-specific book. As soon as you reach that point, it becomes more cost effective and better business to focus on the core line.

I don't know if 3 is the magic number. WW's been doing well with 5. WotC seems to feel that 3 serves their purposes, though, and whether or not that's a hard limit or a soft one, the fact remains that such a line exists somewhere.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Or will this lead to the problems of TSR and AD&D? Too many settings fracture the fan-base and you'll find less and less buyers? On the other hand if they really give us only 3 books per setting, the risk is probably minimized. It's not the same as supporting dozens of settings for multiple years.

But my real problem: One setting per year means I have to wait one year for each setting! I don't want to wait! I hate waiting! I want all this stuff available now, immediately!

My hope: I hope that each setting will be covered via the GSL or a similar license, so that third-parties can put out adventures and other stuff for them. I am definite in for some Eberron adventures, for example.