4e Has Less Raw Content: Fact!

[MichaelSomething]

If you want monster fluff and WOTC won't give it to you, why not buy it from someone else? Let your dollars do your talking for you.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I have the 4e DMG here, and on page 7, under the "FUN!" heading, it says:

"Different people have different ideas of what's fun about D&D. Remember that the "right way" to play D&D is the way that you and your players agree on and enjoy. If everyone comes to the table prepared to contribute to the game, everyone has fun."

Yes, later on the DMG (for example, p 21 under "Passing Time") it states that DMs can gloss over details that don't have much to do with adventuring and heroic action, but those are the preferences of some of the designers- and if you and your group enjoy some of those mundane details (like mine does), then spend some time on those aspects of the game.

I think the DMG would lose a sizable pagecount if the word "fun" was restricted in use in any way.

[quote DMG p.7]
personal squabbles and fights among the characters get in the way of the fun. [/quote]

On page 86 in the "winging it" section the word fun appears 3 TIMES in one sentence.

Page 105 "On Fun"
This whole section is just crap.

Page 121
In the section on awarding experience points, just go ahead and give xp to absent players so they can stay leveled up with the group-its more FUN. "Heck who needs to show up for the boring stuff. Just gimmie my XP and tell me when the boss session is"

Page 33

I will spare everyone the long winded quote but see if you can spot the nonsensical use of "fun" as a filler word. (hint: left column)

Ok there is some good advice on running games in this thing but its buried by all the FUN being crammed down the reader's throat. If a game is fun it will become evident when played.

 

[Fifth Element]

[quote DMG p.7]
personal squabbles and fights among the characters get in the way of the fun.

I'd say that's true. No problem there.

On page 86 in the "winging it" section the word fun appears 3 TIMES in one sentence.

No it doesn't. You appear to be referring to the last paragraph, which does include three uses of "fun", but it is in fact made up of two sentences.

And if "fun" is what they mean, they shouldn't avoid using the word just because.

Page 105 "On Fun"
This whole section is just crap.

I can see what you're getting at. They worded parts of this badly. But it hardly supports your sweeping claim that certain playstyles have simply been declared unfun.

Page 121
In the section on awarding experience points, just go ahead and give xp to absent players so they can stay leveled up with the group-its more FUN.

Yeah, this is one of the suggestions they give on how to deal with absent players and XP. They also explicitly discuss only giving XP to characters involved in the encounters, and say "There's nothing wrong with that."

So there's a problem with them suggesting a couple of different ways to do something, and saying that they are both fine?

Page 33

I will spare everyone the long winded quote but see if you can spot the nonsensical use of "fun" as a filler word. (hint: left column)

I can only assume you mean the clear typographical error. "If you spend ...your preparation time...designing additional encounters...to make sure something has something they fun among the encounter mix..."

That's clearly a typo. Blame them for poor editing if you like, but that has nothing to do with the claim you're trying to support.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Trogs who come up to the surface to gather victims for Torog, the King That Crawls

All Hail King Torog!
-Hyp.

 

[Gothmog]

I think the DMG would lose a sizable pagecount if the word "fun" was restricted in use in any way.


personal squabbles and fights among the characters get in the way of the fun.

On page 86 in the "winging it" section the word fun appears 3 TIMES in one sentence.

Page 105 "On Fun"
This whole section is just crap.

Page 121
In the section on awarding experience points, just go ahead and give xp to absent players so they can stay leveled up with the group-its more FUN. "Heck who needs to show up for the boring stuff. Just gimmie my XP and tell me when the boss session is"

Page 33

I will spare everyone the long winded quote but see if you can spot the nonsensical use of "fun" as a filler word. (hint: left column)

Ok there is some good advice on running games in this thing but its buried by all the FUN being crammed down the reader's throat. If a game is fun it will become evident when played.

Good points, but a few clarifications need to be made.

On the page 7 quote you provide, the first part reads: "Everyone should treat each other with respect and consideration too- personal squabbles and fights among the characters get in the way of the fun." This is basically saying don't be a jackass during a game, and take out personal grudges on others via characters. I see nothing wrong with that advice.

On page 86: yeah, using "fun" in that sentence that many times grates on me too- how about "enjoyable", "rewarding", etc.

On page 105: While crap is a little strong, I can't say I agree with everything said there either. Sometimes the little details can be the most rewarding to play through. Me and my group love that kind of thing. But remember the DMG is supposed to be written more at an audience of people who have never DMed before- and you could do far worse than the advice given there for a newbie DM (like enforcing strict encumberance on everyone). Folks who like more cinematic games might really like this advice on p 105, while folks like me who are more simulationist ignore it. This is more a playstyle issue than a hard and fast rule though.

On page 121: Yeah, I remember seeing that too when first reading the DMG and going WTF? While sticking a 1st level character in a 6th level party is a bad idea because it will be frustrating for the lower level player to be completely ineffectual (not to mention the higher level PCs having to save the noob's butt all the time), the answer IMO is NOT to just level everyone regardless if they have been playing or not. Playing is its own reward, but those who take the commitment to the game seriously and show up, contribute, and make it more enjoyable for all SHOULD be rewarded more than the guy who can't bother to come because he's hung over, forgot, or had something else he'd rather do but not tell the group.

In all fairness though, later on page 121 and 122, they do say there is nothing wrong at all with only giving XP to active characters. Again, this isn't a hard and fast rule, but a playstyle and preference thing. I can imagine a beer & pretzels game giving XP to all regardless, while a more serious campaign rewards those who come regularly most.

And page 33: LOL, poor WotC editors!

 

[Henry]

However, I have seen games totally bog down by players who delve into minutiae like a shopping trip, or an encounter with gate guards (ironically) that went south and derailed the whole evening into antics between the PCs and the town security force. I do think they should have put a little more into "reading your players" on whether they're enjoying a certain part of a session. If everyone at the table is engaged at antics between the PCs and the town guard, and couldn't care less about getting back to the adventure, then roll with it; actually trying to force them back on course to your adventure might make them frustrated, because it's possible they want something different.

Case in point: d20 Modern game I was running. It required some subtlety, some cultist infiltration, some stealth. The players didn't want that; they wanted to blow stuff up. So, the adventure for the night went very south when I tried to get them back on track. Had I read the players a bit better, and improvised a bit more with some combat encounters, it might have gone better.

 

[Hussar]

Darn you Gothmog, you stole everything I wanted to say.

On page 105. Let's take a look at this "crap" shall we?

Fun is the one element you shouldn't vary. Every encounter in an adventure should be fun. As much as possible, fast forward throug hthe parts of an adventure that aren't fun. An encounter with the two guards at the city gate isn't fun. Tell the players they get through the gate without much trouble and move on to the fun. Niggling details of food supply and encumberance usually aren't fun, so don't sweat them and let the players get to the adventure and on to the fun. Long treks through endles corridors in the ancient dwarven stronghold beneath the mountains aren't fun. Move the PC's quickly from encounter to encounter and on to the fun!

This is crap advice for a new DM? Or heck, any DM? Let's boil it down shall we? He's saying, "Don't ponce about with minutia. Keep the pace high and exciting."

This is probably the best advice you can give ANY DM. How many games have you been in that have dragged interminably because you get stuck into some minor point that really, really doesn't matter? I cannot possibly be the only person who's tuned out at the table because the DM over there wants to talk about the weather with one PC. GET ON WITH IT.

It's not like this is new advice either. From Dungeoncraft, Monte Cook wrote that if you spend more than 5 minutes with any one player, you're spending too much time. ((I cannot remember the exact issue, but, that's the quote)) This is pretty much the same thing.

Now, before you get all hot about badwrongfun sorts of stuff, remember the basic premise of this quote - you should never vary the fun. If your players are having fun, you are doing the right thing. Full stop. If your players want to spend half an hour talking to the gate guards, great. So long as the table is having fun, do it. Otherwise, don't sweat the small stuff and get back to what's fun.

This is crap advice? Really?

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Hussar, read the post right above you.

It is badwrongfun. It's stating - get to the combat, because everything else is boring. I don't see how that can be conceived as anything but badwrongfun. Sure, it sucks when one player drags something out a long time, but that's not what it's criticizing. It's saying that, if the party gets involved with small time stuff in town, CHOOO CHOOOOO! Railroad them right back into fightan games.

 

[Hussar]

Hussar, read the post right above you.

It is badwrongfun. It's stating - get to the combat, because everything else is boring. I don't see how that can be conceived as anything but badwrongfun. Sure, it sucks when one player drags something out a long time, but that's not what it's criticizing. It's saying that, if the party gets involved with small time stuff in town, CHOOO CHOOOOO! Railroad them right back into fightan games.

No, it isn't. You are reading what isn't written.

It's saying, and I'll quote:

Every encounter in an adventure should be fun. As much as possible, fast forward throug hthe parts of an adventure that aren't fun.

And, y'know what? Talking to extraneous nobodies who have nothing to do with what's going on in the game isn't fun. Now, if it IS fun, then you shouldn't fast forward through it. Fast forward through the stuff you don't like.

Having been in far too many games that get mired in minutia, this is absolutely fantastic advice for any DM. Sure, the example might have been worded better, but, you're spinning it counter to what the rest of the paragraph is saying.

 

[Psion]

Fun is the one element you shouldn't vary. Every encounter in an adventure should be fun. As much as possible, fast forward throug hthe parts of an adventure that aren't fun. An encounter with the two guards at the city gate isn't fun. Tell the players they get through the gate without much trouble and move on to the fun. Niggling details of food supply and encumberance[sic] usually aren't fun, so don't sweat them and let the players get to the adventure and on to the fun. Long treks through endles[sic] corridors in the ancient dwarven stronghold beneath the mountains aren't fun. Move the PC's quickly from encounter to encounter and on to the fun!

This is crap advice for a new DM? Or heck, any DM?

I'll go with No and Yes, respectively.

Keeping things flowing, glossing over dull encounters... yep, good stuff.

But the bit that if followed verbatim will keep a good GM from becoming a great one...

Every encounter in an adventure should be fun.​

I gotta disagree with that. If you are striving to move beyond the basics and become a great DM, this absolute principle it too over-simplified. Every encounter should contribute to a good gaming experience, but levying fun as a requirement in isolation is not good universal advice.

A simple example that AFAICT usually happens pretty early in the progression of a good DM is the encounter that is made to chap the PC's/player's hide. Like the evil baker (forget if this was in Sagiro's or Pkitty's story hour). Taken in isolation, those encounters aren't fun. But they are gold in the bank to making a fun campaign.