4e Has Less Raw Content: Fact!

[Hussar]

I'll agree that perhaps "fun" is the wrong word. Enjoyable? Memorable? ahh, I know the right word:

Engaging.

So long as the players (and the DM too of course) are engaged by the game, you're doing fine.

Cursing a PC might be arguable as not fun. But, if done right, it's certainly engaging.

That I would agree with.

 

[justanobody]

I don't think a single word should be used that often no matter what it is synonymous with.

Not every encounter will be fun for the player, not will every one be fun for the DM. Rolling dice makes that happen. Random chance and bad dice rolls are never "fun". Arguments between players can be engaging but don't further the game.

It is good for older players, but if you don't already know what they are trying to say, it seems like an early teaching version that loses the more advanced concepts of playing the game.

Like the constant use of "cool" to describe 4th edition prior to June.

And what if the minutia is what people find fun? Should you skip over it then?

There seems to be mixed signals in that passage or just double talk trying to avoid the real subject because someone couldn't seem get find the right words to say.

 

[Hussar]

And what if the minutia is what people find fun? Should you skip over it then?

No. According to the advice they give you, no you shouldn't.

 

[Arnwyn]

Ah. So it's just reasonable advice thoroughly riddled with unhelpful and far-from-universal examples, resulting in a paragraph of questionable value.

Sorry - can't say that particular paragraph was presented in a good way. I'll have to agree with the "crap" opinion. ("Considerable room for improvement" to put it politely.)

 

[Fifth Element]

And, y'know what? Talking to extraneous nobodies who have nothing to do with what's going on in the game isn't fun. Now, if it IS fun, then you shouldn't fast forward through it. Fast forward through the stuff you don't like.

This is exactly the point of the paragraph in question. Unfortunately, parts of it are worded badly. For instance, they say an encounter with a guards at the gate is not fun. Clearly they should have qualified that (usually not as much fun as other things you could be doing, for example), or better yet, just steered clear of specific examples entirely.

But the crux of the advice - fast forward through things the group does not find fun - is sound.

 

[Fifth Element]

I don't think a single would should be used that often no matter what it is synonymous with.

Assuming that by "would" you meant "word", I think it's just a problem of perception. If you just look at 4-5 passages that all concentrate on the word "fun", it sure looks like the word gets used a lot. But that's from a 220-page book.

We don't have any evidence the word is really overused, since we're only looking at the passages where it is used.

 

[Fifth Element]

Ah. So it's just reasonable advice thoroughly riddled with unhelpful and far-from-universal examples, resulting in a paragraph of questionable value.

Precisely. Good advice, bad presentation.

 

[justanobody]

Assuming that by "would" you meant "word", I think it's just a problem of perception. If you just look at 4-5 passages that all concentrate on the word "fun", it sure looks like the word gets used a lot. But that's from a 220-page book.

We don't have any evidence the word is really overused, since we're only looking at the passages where it is used.

Oh it doesn't matter about the whole book if the overuse of the word destroys the paragraph it is in. You can throw that whole paragrpah away.

It should have went along the lines of something like this I guess:

Playing the game should be fun for all players, including yourself. Here are some things you can look out for that some people may not enjoy:

*Always stopping to talk to the two guards on duty.
*Keeping track of every coin spent, or every consumable used. (ammo, rations, etc)
*etc

There are exceptions to when these thing may help the game along, or your players may wish to take the time to do these things, otherwise you can skip most mundane tasks for the benefit of the game to keep it moving along.

Sort of how the old DMGs told the DM to try to keep the game moving and don't let the players stagnate or get stuck on something, and to read the player response to know whether or not the are enjoying the current activity going on within the game. But without trying to force the word fun on someone continuously, or to force the writers idea of fun on someone else to make it seem like these things are not fun to some people, or that people who find the listed things fun are playing D&D wrong.

 

[Kishin]

As a sort of tangent, I miss the design principles or method to create and modify classes. 4E would feel much more complete if we had a robust system to create the classes we want.

How can you miss something that never existed? (Actually, according to the Gin Blossoms, the I Ching of the Human Experience, you can, but I digress...)
Previous editions never had such things; Class design was a total shot in the dark.

 

[Fifth Element]

Oh it doesn't matter about the whole book if the overuse of the word destroys the paragraph it is in. You can throw that whole paragrpah away.

It should have went along the lines of something like this I guess:

But the problems with that paragraph have nothing to do with the number of times the word "fun" is used. It has to do with the examples being crap, because they do not apply in all (or even many?) cases.

I agree that that paragraph needs to be rewritten. But that has nothing to do with the use of the word "fun".